glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by milifestyle, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2005
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Don't need it, Don't use it and god help any simple minded council worker spraying near my place again. :twisted: One way to really piss me off, I turn green and get real mean and scary..... :axe:
     
  2. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Our neighbour and our property owner, which makes him our landlord (same person) is one of the nicest guys you could meet anywhere. He runs his own sheep and pigs and we always get a side of pork or side of lamb for nothing (or kill price which is around $20). We only have a small tank but he has a 20,000 gallon tank he doesn't use as he has spring water. We recently laid the water onto the house from his tank so we can use both our own water and his.

    We have just today discovered that the collection point is our neighbours shed roof which in itself is ok, unfortunately the shed is ONLY 3 FEET FROM THE FARMER WHO SPRAYS AGRICULTURAL CHEMICAL RELIGIOUSLY (Every couple of weeks Same as in my previous post).

    Is there a legal obligation for the farmer to alter his spray path ? There is no way to alter the collection point and our landlord is stuck in the middle !
     
  3. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    depends on weather you value your life over the water...i think........sorry....

    maybe mention to ur landlord some to check his reaction......then go from there its his worry ultimatly...

    hack into his spring water line......

    tell/sk landlord for propper healthy water .sure thers some regulations to standards of water in peoples houses/drinking water.....get some tests,if u really worried...


    Moove somewhere else :butthead: to the landlord

    Tezza
     
  4. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Tezza - the neighbour/landlord is not the one spraying. The landlord is allowing milf to use water from his tank on his property, not the one that milf rents (so not the landlords problem).

    I feel for you milifestyle - terrible situation :(
     
  5. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    oooooooooops


    how bout :axe: :butthead: to his neighbour then....



    Actually the chemical maybe quite diluted by time it gets washed over to your place,as not too worry......Its princaples too...

    One of my landlords used to collect rain off his asbestos roof untill they heard about the contamination...He was luckt,and us also he changed it over to spring fed water in his tank only...

    This is why a lot of us in here feel the way we do about these chemicals...............its not our use we worried about so much....its the uneducated and uncaring

    Tezza
     
  6. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I think i may contact someone in the Agricultural (better still health) department and see if there is anything to be concerned about. I think there is personally. If it was safe at the concentration level he was spraying, he wouldn't be dressed like a spaceman while applying it.
     
  7. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2005
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    get in touch with your minister for water

    if the law is anything likes queenslands - a neighbour can not stop the flow of water or cause water to be fouled - and the bloke with the spray is fouling your water
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    g'day mls,

    dunno mate you may have to do some checking before emotion??

    ok you rent a house from this guy the house tank sounds part of the necessary deal, (would guess the landlord no matter how nice he is has to provide water at his rental property) now whether it be tank or otherwise (for me i'd be asking for the spring water as it may less contaminated or be less open to contamination?), so first up you would need to prove contamination of the water (could be costly?), then talk to the landlord about a safer supply.

    now as agriculture is a sacred cow so far no gov' that i am aware of has ever taken affirmative action to stop any farmer contaminating anything.

    this all could come under "buyer beware", so all the benefits of livng there aside at the end of the day living there is your choice or not living there is your choice. would i personnaly drink the water knowing it could be contaminated "nope", then maybe i may choose not to live there. when we looked at properties before we moved to rural we where shown one that shared a common boundry with a corn grower and yes we were told he boom sprayed often (prob' why the owners wanted to sell) we didn't buy either for those obvious reasons.

    also not sure how much of any contamination might affect what the sheep and pigs eat?

    also there would still be the concern of chem' fall out over your whole property gardens and all.

    anyhow let us know how you go.

    len
     
  9. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    https://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... e-ext.html
    https://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... e-ext.html

    https://pubsearch.arsnet.usda.gov/search ... ontend&oe=
    https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... 115=228096




    https://www.researchinchina.com/Report/A ... /5290.html

    https://www.agrow.com/news283.shtml
     
  10. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I think the overall opinion is that its a "relatively" safe product. The part i find eye popping is the massive amount manufactured and used throughout the world.

    I have seen very little information on Bio Magnification studies of the product, particularly when mixed (deliberately or accidentally) with other pesticides or agri/industrial chemicals.

    Most research also fails to take susceptability factors into consideration.
     
  11. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,441
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I've scanned the postings and no one mentions that old crusty in his book "Travels in Dreams " freely admits to a plan to nuke the blackberries with roundup!
    Always the pragmatist :wink:

    I hate monsanto, du pont, bayer-roche et al,,they are the enemy,,,,and I was not going to compromise my high ideals (even with Bill doing his thing).

    But a bare ground fire break as our shire council requires is only practical with herbicides. The alternative is heavy machinery and implements like a scarifier.
    I'm hip to steam,,but there is another capital cost,,,the steamer.

    So, I get in bed with the devil ? aaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!! god it isn't easy being green.
    regards, Kimbo
     
  12. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    yes probably "relatively" safe
    But the amount being produced and used is staggering.
    My local council uses it around the bottom of poles, signs, walkways anywhere they are too lazy to mow.

    https://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_g ... eId=140310
    https://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_g ... eId=140310
     
  13. zzsstt

    zzsstt Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I'd like to make a few comments, if I may.

    1/ Studies:
    Studies prove exactly what they set out to. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that any study is anything less than a marketing tool. I say this having worked in the chemical industry, the paper industry, the pharmaceutical industry and the farming industry. I have absolutely no reason to suspect that studies done by the "anti" anything brigade are any different.

    2/ "If it's safe why does it have warnings":
    Because just about everything does, for legal reasons. You underarm spray probably has warnings. Most of the stuff under your kitchen sink has warnings. Most of the food you eat has warnings. Of course, if you only eat what you grow, and you use no chemicals - oh, wait, EVERYTHING IS A CHEMICAL so that's impossible..... nevermind.....

    3/ Glyphosate is an organophosphate:
    Er, no its not.

    4/ Gylphosate killed my poodle:
    Er, no it didn't. Glyphosate has very little toxicity. It is far more likely that the surfactants, penetrants etc. in the formulation killed the dog, if this is in fact not simply an urban myth.

    5/ "It must be Roundup, as yellowing takes less than a week":
    Roundup often takes 10 to 14 days to show any impact. If yellowing is taking less than a week it is actually unlikely to be Roundup. When a farmer wants a quick brownout, he will either use parquat/diquat, or spike Roundup with another product like Hammer. Of all the broadacre herbicides I use, Roundup (on it's own) is one of the slower products to show an affect.

    6/ Various comments along the lines of "I used Roundup once and had a blazing headache" or "my neighbour used Roundup and my sheep miscarried" (not all in this thread or on this forum):
    Unfortunately these kind of comments often do nothing but cause people who know to write off the person who made the comment as a loony. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that everything from Roundup to table sugar has a downside. In fact a few weeks ago I had a very bad headache after exposure to, er, RED WINE. But to suggest that a whiff of Roundup caused a sheep to miscarry is quite simply laughable. Especially as the comments so often come from people with limited experience. If, indeed, the statement is not simply a falsehood, then why do we believe the Roundup is at fault? I know one person (personally) who blamed a spate of aborting animals on chemical use.... it turned out she had been running sheep and goats together, and guess what? Sheep and goats will mate, normally producing either an abortion or full term stillborn. Roundup eh? Still, a good story and an attempt to avoid acceptance of her mistake. Roundup (depending on the formulation) often has no witholding period, meaning a farmer can graze animals on the paddock as soon as the spray is dry. If Roundup killed animals, or caused them to abort, don't you think that there would have been some feedback from farmers that the label was wrong?

    7/ Various comments along the lines of "it's designed to kill things, it must be bad":
    Strange logic. If I spray my roses with detergent or vinegar or bicarb or some other "home remedy" to kill the insects, that spray is "designed to kill things". Does that instantly make it the work of the devil?

    8/ Various comments along the lines of "chemicals are for the lazy":
    Feel free, whenever you have a moment, to come over to my place and do some hand weeding. I can spray 12ha with Roundup in about an hour, and start sowing an hour later. By the time you have hand weeded the first hectare you'll need to start at the beginning again.....

    I use quite a lot of Roundup. It's a very good product for killing most weeds. Yes, there are some cases of resistance. Yes, it is less effective on some weeds than others. Overall it is a relatively safe, relatively cheap product that works very well.

    There is so much misinformation about farming, "chemicals" etc., that it scares me.

    Oh, by the way, no it doesn't break down in to formaldehyde.

    As an aside, regarding spray drift, if you have conclusive evidence of a spray drift issue, by which I mean that you have a row of dead trees, or the first 10m of your lawn/vineyard/vegetable patch are dead, then you can in fact prosecute. However I would suggest a better option would be to approach the farmer and ask him to look at the evidence, then ask him to see what he can do to make sure it doesn't happen again. These days anyone using "chemicals" has to be trained and have a certificate. This means they should be aware of the risk factors for spray drift. Perhaps you could ask to see his certificate? Take photos of the damage, then talk to your local Dept Primary Industries office and see what they say (talk to the farmer first, obviously). Keep a note of when he sprays, and the temperature, humidity and wind speed/direction. Depending on what he is spraying, he may be required to notify you in advance - as far as I know, this means "notify", it does not give you any power of veto. Ideal spraying condition are about 5 to 14kph wind speed, and not in low humidity.

    As another aside, the human nose is very sensitive. Many agricultural sprays have a powerful smell, often added deliberately, and can be smelled in tiny quantities that will do no harm. Just because you can smell them, or see him spraying, does not instantly mean "drift".

    As yet another aside, depending on the weather conditions, spray drift can alledgedly get caught up in inversions and travel great distances (apparently 30km or so) before descending to wreak havoc. So it just might be that the "drift" did not come from your neighbour, but from someone miles away.

    As a final aside, "drift" is also related to the chemical in question. Roundup, like any chemical, can suffer from drift due to high winds and bad nozzle selection (droplets are too fine), but this is quite rare. Some other chemicals are far worse due to the volatility of the chemical itself. The vast majority of "drift" problems relate to the older formulations of selective hormone herbicides (2,4D esters etc.), which have high volatility. If your grapes died, but your grass didn't, it's not glyphosate!.
     
  14. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Perhaps, maybe a cynical (or realist?) attitude? We do hope for better from our scientists.
    This is why we need pure science funded-not by those with a stake in the results.

    What is alarming is the small number of scientific studies given the vast amount used.
    Last I looked, for example only four varieties of Australian frogs had been tested for toxicity.
    tests on soil flora and fauna prove little as they are gross bits of DNA before and after. We don't know enough about soil life yet.


    Yes agreed, this is getting silly. "WARNING these matches could burn you"
    On chemicals I think a distinction can be made for what I would like to call "plastic-man-made" chemicals and 'everyday' ones.
    My plastic-man-made chemicals differ from your everyday chemical in that they are
    1. Made by man, not naturally occurring.
    2. Do not break down readily. Some with half lives of 10-20 years.
    3. Are foreigners to the food chain with not completely understood effects and affects.
    4. No "wee beastie" has worked out how to degrade, disassemble or eat them yet.
    5. Are relative recent visitors to the planet The last 50-100 years say.

    Agreed it is not
    He may have been dyed green first? :)
    Peanuts kill some people. I think a block of dark chocolate would kill a dog quicker than a diluted solution of Glyphosate.

    Depends a bit on the weather. Does it matter?

    I didn't realise anyone had claimed this.

    The work of god or God actually-(or was it Adam and Eve?)

    If you want to be rally lazy you don't have to spray at all.. many are getting better results with sowing in green fields. the extra carbon in the soil seems to help. It certainly helps the planet.

    My council is certainly lazy and spray far too much and unesesaarily. I have seen dish drains become four foot holes with erosion over the years. Meanwhile the local builder has to put bales of hay everywher to stop erosion while he is building--laugable --"what's good for the goose" is not necessarily what is good for the gander.
    Why does the grass at the bottom of Electricity pole, Council Road sign need to be dead?
    How come dead grass is more attractive than live grass?
    Perhaps it should be replacesd with plastic as some councils and shopping malls are doing?
    Apart from aesthetics tall dead grass is a fire hazard.
    Get out the 'whipper snipper' if you want "neat".
    Nature is not "neat". Neatness it is a human construct-we try to make our environment look as sterile as our homes.
    We need all the live grass and plants the planet can get.

    If you are a gardener because you want to save time you are in it for the wrong reasons.

    Yes agreed. However the surfactant used (Still used?-who knows?) in RoundUp has killed -we don't know how many frogs, perhaps millions. Despite this Monsanto and others refuse to put a complete list of ingredients on their packaging.

    Yes true
    This may interest you
    https://poisonedpeople.com/index8.html

    People have learned not to trust chemical companies now. We are still dealing with their mistakes,lies, arrogance, insouciance and culpable, sometimes murderous, mean-spirited behaviour. (e.g. Bhopal India, Sydney Harbour -- Dow /Union Carbide. Dow is even ignoring the criticism of its own major shareholders over Bhopal)

    I was at a presentation by a Bayer scientist about a good (I thought) new pesticide they were introducing.
    I was quite impressed. I was in a room with 50 garden writers. Afterwards I talked to many writers who just dismissed the presentation as "more chemical companies lies".
    I may be too trusting or gullible but I thought what the salesman/scientist had to say was good, addressed a lot of the concerns people have about pesticides and I felt really sorry for him. I do have a little science behind me, but not a lot.
    So, for Bayer, it's back to the PR and BS departments to market the product, as they were getting no (free?) endorsements from that room..

    Finally in the "ignorance"? department
    Also my Italian neighbour who was illiterate (in English- as are many market gardeners) used to mix and stir his 44 gal. drums of malathion etc with his arm.

    Did someone claim that? There is enough in our offices, homes and shampoo already.(Sorry not if it is European Shampoo).

    A solicitor/ barrister friend came home crowing one night -we were at his place for dinner. working for alage insurance company he had just settled for "peanut" after a chemical drift/company? wiped out a whole valley of farmers. He couldn't believe that these people would have no fruit trees or income for 5+ years and settled for so little compensation. He was crowing about his win! He was a bastard but also a friend. like most solistors it is a game, like chess, law has little to do with justice. Knowing my organic leaning he probably embroidered the story for my benefit. But he was well known in legal fraternity for screwing people.

    I did get my own back on him when he came to dinner one night at my home and found half a caterpillar in his organically grown salad. He was a very particular man, a bit obsessive-compulsive like David Suchet in Agatha Christie's Poirot . That put him off organics for life.
    :) :evil: :bear:
     
  15. zzsstt

    zzsstt Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    It's good that people are learning not to trust chemical companies. Now they need to learn not to trust anybody with anything to gain. Sadly that's a very long list, and includes just about everybody who tells you anything. Most of the global warming information comes from people with a motive for example, and every "solution" to global warming profits somebody..........

    The same applies to research studies. The day somebody with a long history of opinion on a subject publishes a study that proves his/her previous opinion to be incorrect will be a turning point.... or indicate that he/she has finally been made an offer too good to refuse! There is no such things as pure science anymore, if indeed there ever was. Scientists set out to prove or disprove a theory, and they normally have a stake in that theory. These days it is even worse, as the popular areas of science are driven more by the media than by the science. Global warming (sorry to hark back to it again, but it's very fashionable at the moment) is a case in point, any scientist who disagrees is labelled a heretic, and ridiculed. As a result, it is very easy for the logical minded and inquisitive person to write off GW as a joke, and a dangerous one at that, whilst others embrace it with religious zeal!

    The definition of "plastic-man-made is interesting. Most of what we eat is only recently added to our diet, and most of it is poorly understood - one study tells me that red wine is bad for me, the next tells me that it is good, and wine has been around a fair while. And how do you define "made by man, not naturally occurring"? How much processing is allowed? Is the product of reacting sodium hydroxide with fatty acids "man made" or naturally occuring? If animal fat is rendered to make tallow, then burnt in candles, is this natural? Where is the line drawn?

    I'm not sure whether anybody made the claim in this thread that glyphosate gave them a headache or caused animals to abort, but I have seen both claims made, together with more extreme claims of loss of motor function and paralysis. A quick Google will, I'm sure, produce a large number of such claims. The same applies to the break down to formaldehyade, it's a standard line in the "anti" propaganda, taken as gospel by many, and is in fact utterly false.

    Sowing in to green fields, eh? Like everything this is horses for courses. I have a relatively clean, weed free, paddock of (rather than get technical, lets call it) millet. I am contemplating sowing a winter cereal straight in to it, but that's because the first frost will kill off the millet. The downside is that the established millet will, until it dies, suck the moisture out of the ground which will seriously reduce the germination and initial growth of the cereal, possibly killing it entirely. If I do not spray out the millet, I still cannot graze it because that will trample any germinating cereal, so it will grow unchecked until the frost. If that frost is not soon, the established millet will shade out the cereal seedlings, and use the nitrogen I drilled with it, so once again my cereal crop is threatened. If I spray out the millet this will not happen, as there will be no competition. It will also make no difference to the carbon levels, the carbon currently in the millet will still be there, and any additional growth that the millet may have put on (fixing carbon) would have been at the expense of lack of performance (fixing carbon) by the cereal. A more interesting issue is that of adding a biological stimulant to the Roundup, to help rebuild any soil fauna damaged in the spray, and accelerate the recycling of the stubble. However sowing in to a year-round perennial is a complete no-no, because the competition is too high for the crop to establish. Pasture cropping works because you sow in to summer active (winter dormant) grasses, with Roundup to kill any annual weeds after the grasses go dormant.

    Solicitors, yes. Like salesmen and advertising execs (and anyone else with a product or agenda to push) they have to have an utter lack of morals in order to attempt to persuade people that what they know to be utterly untrue is real and genuine. Just comtemplate the moral depravity required to attempt to get someone you know to be guilty acquitted on a technicality. Sadly this goes straight back to the top of this post, you can rarely if ever trust anybody with something to gain!

    No company given a choice will ever give a full list of what is in their product, for several reasons. It makes no sense to tell your competitors how your product work, if you can avoid it. It also allows minor changes to the formulation to be made without changing the entire packaging, though this is less applicable in a registered or license product. In fact some glyphosate products have more "other ingredients" than others. The cheaper formlations require the user to add surfactants, penetrants etc., and because they are absorbed much more slowly they may take 6+ hours to be rainfast, and require several days to elapse before sowing can commence. The more expensive formulations (with heaps of additivies) are rainfast in 30 minutes and sowing can commence in an hour. I actually keep both products, if the weather is good and I'm in no hurry I'll use the cheaper product, but if the weather is dodgy or I need to start sowing quickly I'll use the good stuff.

    Frogs are an interesting issue, however. Looking at the bigger picture, I have created a permanent dam per 14Ha of land on my property (which will increase further). These dams provide habitat for frogs, where previously there was none, or more accurately a single creek with destructive flows during storms but drying to nothing after a few weeks. So whilst it is sad if my spraying kills frogs (or yabbies, eels, spiders, turtles, whatever), I can live with that because if I did not farm this land the total population of those animals would be far less anyway. I would guess that overall there are more frogs with my dams+spraying than there would have been with neither. I have the same approach to roo's, deer, rabbits, foxes etc. We co-exist on this land, they benefit from my enterprises but that enterprise must be profitable for it to continue, so their numbers have to be controlled at a suitable level. Overall, once again, I suspect we support a greater population of these animals than would exist here without us.

    The website you linked to is interesting, and one that I would largely write off (on a quick skim through) as the work of a loony. It contains the normal stuff, "I got sick after chemicals" etc., together with the normal "I was known to be sensitive to chemicals". Sensitive to chemicals? He's made of chemicals! It also quotes "studies", but I think we have established the value of "studies". Besides, as he seems to be suing just about everybody he falls under the category of "something to gain", and therefore we cannot expect him to be anything but biased. It is unfortunate that people will read this stuff and a small number of them will believe. So next time they see somebody spraying and they get the 'flu two days later, it becomes "because of the spray". People are like that, they like something to blame. The web site states that there have been cases of outbreaks of flu-like symptoms affecting many children at a school after chemical use. Well, a few weeks ago my sons school had an outbreak of "flu-like symptoms", at one point 30% of his class were off school at one time. I am quite sure that I could probably, if I looked hard enough, find that a toilet had been cleaned with bleach the previous day, but does that mean the bleach was to blame? Cause and effect require more than just a convenient timeline.
     
  16. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I am disapointed to see people believing the company propaganda :(

    eg GlyPHOSate IS an organophosphate but Monsanto dont want it known

    I suffered the cholinesterase inhibition to prove it when I lived in an area where they used it all the time - and my friend suffered neurological damage that reacked her life when they sprayed a school oval where she used to be a teacher - it is well known over here that a boy died after walking barefoot along just sprayed with Roundup road verge and now that Shire use a hot water machine

    I could find links to the independant information about Roundup being an OP but to be honest I cant be bothered :lol: those who can believe anything Monsanto says have already crossed over to the dark side - remember I tried to warn you !!!!
     
  17. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Indeed, according to Monsanto press releases, company sales representatives are encouraging farmers to mix glyphosate and older herbicides such as 2,4-D, a herbicide which was banned in Sweden, Denmark and Norway over its links to cancer, reproductive harm and mental impairment. 2,4-D is also well-known for being a component of Agent Orange, a toxic herbicide which was used in chemical warfare in Vietnam in the 1960s.
    https://www.france24.com/en/20090418-sup ... d-US-crops
     
  18. zzsstt

    zzsstt Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Glyphosate is an organic compound containing phosphorous, yes. There are many organic compounds that contain phosphorous. However in the real world the term OP is used to describe such compounds that act on aceltylcholinesterase, i.e. insecticides. Glyphosate is not one of these. There have been studies that show glyphosate to cause damage to cells, but these were in vitro studies. Interestingly they also reported that the concentration of glyphosate made no difference to the result, thus the blame is likely to fall on the surfactants. I do not know of any in vivo studies that prove glyphosate specifically, not any surfactant, to cause problems. The reason I specify glyphosate against the surfactants is that clearly surfactants cause problems - squirt some dishwashing liquid in your eye and see what I mean.......

    I will not comment on the concept of people dying after walking barefoot across a sprayed area.

    As far as spraying goes, you are blaming Roundup. Is it not more likely that the spray contained an OP insecticide, which is DESIGNED as a cholinesterase inhibitor? When spraying out a paddock to sow it is common practice to add an insecticide.....
     
  19. zzsstt

    zzsstt Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Absolutely Monsanto encourage mixing. Roundup on it's own does not control insect pests, so requires an insecticide for RLEM control. It is also not very effective on certain weeds like Small Flowered Marshmallow, for example, so spiking it with 2,4D or Hammer or any one of several different herbicides is recommended practice if those weeds are present. Glyphosate is quite a slow acting herbicide, so needs a spike if the user requires a faster brownout. Additional additives ("tank mixes") include pH modifiers, wetting agents, penetrants and chemicals designed to manipulate droplet size. Personally I am also considering a biological stimulant to encourage soil fauna growth to break down the stubble more quickly. It is also well known that complete dependence a single herbicide, or herbicides within a single mode of action is a recipe for rapid development of resistance. So spiking with herbicides from other groups (modes of action) is beneficial, as is a "double knock" strategy using (for example) SpraySeed (paraquat+diquat). By the way, SpraySeed is a real "kill you dead" product, if you ingest it you're in real trouble and even in dilute form will cause bleeding of exposed mucus membranes etc. Are you scared yet?

    2,4D was an ingredient for Agent Orange. So was water........ The problems with Agent Orange were actually largely due to a contaminant (TCDD) from the manufacture of 2,4,5-T (the other component), which has been identified as causing all sorts of problems. 2,4D is another relatively safe product.... if you're not a plant!

    When considering the "issues" surrounding industrial or agricultural chemicals, there are some important points to consider:

    Hundreds of thousands of people use these products each and every day, with no adverse affects.

    Governments test these products to ensure they are safe when used appropriately.

    Chemical companies (I have worked for several in the past) want to make a profit, but do not want to be sued.

    Some people are allergic to peanuts.

    I had a flatmate once who was allergic to capsicum, but only if she knew she had eaten it. Initially we were very careful and prepared her food seperately. Then on one occasion she ate a dish containing (without her knowing) capsicum, and nothing happened. After that we continued to use it in the cooking without telling her and she never had a problem. However she was violently ill after discovering a piece of capsicum in a pub meal she had half eaten.....go figure!

    I once watched a documentary about a child that was allergic to water (I kid u not), and it's own tears caused it's faced to blister.....

    A friend of mine firmly believes that KFC have bred chickens without beaks, so they have less work to do cleaning the carcass.

    I know a lady who was concerned about the development of her baby/toddler son. She carted the infant around several doctors who declared the child perfectly normal. Eventually the seventh doctor (again, this is a fact) diagnosed the child to be autistic. After a great deal of expensive treatment, the child is no longer autistic, and by her dedication and hard work he has been cured....... Now autism and it's diagnosis is a subject quite close to me, and I imagine that many of you would know that AUTISM CANNOT BE CURED. An individual is either autistic or not. This child never was, but she managed to persuade a doctor (admittedly the 7th one she visited) to say he was. This has nothing to do with Roundup, but is an example of how by blind faith of a dedicated parent a child can make the impossible journey from normal to austic and back again.


    I use chemicals every day, both natural and manmade, agricultural and domestic. I know FOR A FACT that there are things that you contact every day that are far more toxic than most herbicides.
     
  20. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I just read a New Scientist article (jan 2009) on sufactants that are excreted by bacteria. This is a recent discovery. They think They are there to help the tranfer of food and energy into the bacteria.
    However they have also found them in the atmosphere and specualte that they may cause rain !

    It seems 'soap' or surfactants might be much more important to our ecology than anyone dreamed possible.

    Meanwile Monsanto refuses to tell us what they are using DESPITE the huge environmental damage done to frogs (and. . .?) by their last surfactant.
     

Share This Page

-->