glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by milifestyle, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    I came across this article and posted it on the INDY Lawn Mowing forum. The overall opinion was, "Yes we know its toxic, but we don't have an alternative so we'll keep using it until there is one".

    What is the overall opinion of the use of glyphosate in the permaculture environment ?

    Source: https://www.mcs-global.org/Documents...%20Brochure.doc


    ROUNDUP AND THE ENVIRONMENT
    Roundup has been found to be highly deadly to tadpoles when used in recommended concentrations, suggesting a possible cause for the decline in frog species world wide. Glyphosate containing products are acutely toxic to fish and have been shown to kill beneficial insects such as parasitic wasps, ladybirds, lacewings and predatory beetles, and to affect earthworms, beneficial fungi and soil bacteria. Various insects such as butterflies, whose larvae feed on weeds, can be affected by the loss of food sources due to herbicide use. Glyphosate has indirect impacts on birds, which depend on plants for shelter and food, and the insects which feed on them.

    Some weeds, such as annual rye grass in Australia, are reported to be developing natural resistance to glyphosate, making the herbicide ineffective.

    THE INTERNATIONAL AND LOCAL SITUATION
    In the USA and Canada growing numbers of local government authorities have stopped using herbicides in street maintenance and have even placed local bans and other restrictions on the private use of pesticides and herbicides. Some governments have developed education campaigns on the health problems associated with herbicides. In the USA at least a dozen states have introduced pesticide legislation requiring prior public notification of commercial pesticide and herbicide applications. The Danish government is considering restrictions on Roundup after it was found to be contaminating groundwater used for drinking. The City of Auckland, New Zealand, only uses herbicide when no alternative is available. In Western Australia the Cities of Fremantle and Nedlands have stopped using herbicide routinely in street maintenance due to residents’ health concerns but most local governments in Australia simply ignore the problem.

    MORE INFORMATION
    Residents Organising Against Roundup has recently formed in SA and is already active in NSW.
    Glyphosate Fact Sheet Part 1 & 2.

    https://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/...ctsheet-Cox.htm
    Ontario College of Family Physicians Pesticide Review

    https://www.ocfp.on.ca/English/OCFP/...default.asp?s=1

    Our Stolen Future: Exposure early in life to herbicides and pesticides.

    https://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewS...14salametal.htm

    BeyondPesticides https://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn/activist/index.htm

    GENERAL SYMPTOMS OF GLYPHOSATE EXPOSURE
    Although glyphosate is considered to be less toxic than most other herbicides, it is still a serious poison.

    Acute health problems following unintentional exposure to glyphosate include:

    ? Eye Irritation
    ? Painful Eyes
    ? Burning Eyes
    ? Blurred Vision
    ? Swollen Eyes, Face And Joints
    ? Blisters
    ? Skin Rash
    ? Rapid Heartbeat
    ? Heart Palpitations
    ? High Blood Pressure
    ? Chest Pains
    ? Coughing
    ? Headache
    ? Nausea
    ? Facial Numbness
    ? Burning Sensation On Skin
    ? Itchy Skin
    ? Tingling Skin
    ? Recurrent Eczema
    ? Fatigue
    ? Breathing Problems


    WHAT HAPPENS TO THE GLYPHOSATE WHEN IT IS SPRAYED AROUND OUR STREETS AND HOMES?

    Monsanto claims that Roundup “has no residual soil activity” is “completely biodegradable” and “sticks very tightly to the soil”. They also advise that “children and pets should be kept away from the sprayed area until the weeds are completely dry” but that “this is simply to avoid transferring Roundup from the treated weeds onto desirable plants”. But how accurate are these claims?

    Glyphosate is considered by independent researchers to be a persistent environmental pollutant. Glyphosate residues have been found in lettuce, carrots and barley planted one year after glyphosate applications. Glyphosate can also evaporate from certain soils, with up to 80% of applied glyphosate evaporating within a two-hour period. The fact that glyphosate is both highly persistent and relatively mobile in soil increases its toxic potential. In addition, glyphosate is always used as a spray and the problem of spray-drift cannot be avoided no matter how carefully it is applied. Glyphosate can be detected in the urine of farm children who were present when it was mixed or sprayed. Due to their small size and immaturity children are at increased risk of damage from herbicides.

    People with chemical sensitivity report severe reactions to minor spray-drift and glyphosate residues. Even walking in an area that has been sprayed several days earlier can make some people sick for weeks or months with allergy-type symptoms.

    MONSATO’S HISTORY OF DECEPTION
    Laboratories used to assess the safety of glyphosate have been associated with fraudulent practices. In 1991 allegations of falsified data by the US Environment Protection Agency resulted in criminal charges and multi-million dollar fines. In 1996 and 1998 Monsanto was successfully sued by the New York State Attorney General for “false and misleading” advertising regarding the human and environmental safety of Roundup.
     
  2. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    There is credible, reliable evidence that the aerial spraying of glyphosate along the Colombia-Ecuador border damages the physical health of people living in Ecuador.

    not my mouthing off - taken from a United Nations report


    https://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane. ... endocument

    there are other reports that implicate glysohpate use in agent orange type symptoms.

    no glysophate/zero/roundup in this little garden
     
  3. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Thanks paradisi,

    Gardening is my day job and i don't even spray the stuff for customers any more (chemical free for about 2 years).

    Edit: thanks for the reference, i found the same report only tonight referenced at a different website, but same basic information.

    I would be interested in hearing as many views as possible on the use of this product.
     
  4. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    It is a real problem that most people think Glyphosphate is harmless. I was of the same view a few years back, until I read some posts on here and some other places. In those days, I used the stuff often to kill large areas of weeds.

    I have to admit that I still use it very infrequently (one time I can remember in the last 12 months), but only in areas where I do not grow food plants and where I am trying to implement a successful mulching program. It is certainly my aim to never use it - and it has been longer than I can remember since I've used any other chemical herbicide or pesticide.

    So many times I have successfully mulched large areas at my place (using newspaper or some other thing under sugarcane mulch) in an attempt to get rid of the trillions of coblers pegs that I have here (as well as other weeds), but of course it only takes one or tow plants to come up and seed unnoticed for the whole cycle to start again :x
     
  5. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    If you want an overal answe to roundup.............................

    This has been established long ago on this site..........WE HAVE ZERO TOLLERANCE, to roundup or anyother commercial name....


    This has been a very vocal and angry debate in here....It has no place in MY permaculture Envioroment....


    Herbicide is for lazy or uncaring people...Producers of Herbicide should be closed down...

    may i suggest that maybe u type in roundup in the search button maybe youll find out how it has been felt in here..


    Tezza :axe:
     
  6. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    i don't support the wholesale use of the product, but i also don't see a real issue if i use dab of it painted onto a nut grass sprout in an away from garden situations (the way we lay our gardens we never have nut grass in our gardens) ie.,. stone pathways those sort of places, generally we are talking about having to treat 6 or so plants, coincidently this is where we opted to use weed mat (bad decision) instead of newspaper. or when we were on the property we had a few grounsel pop up so i treated each plant, again it was away from the garden and it wasn't used in a blanket spray situation.

    so in those cases i don't see a lot of problems and in those cases we certainly don't buy a lot of the product.

    len
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I look at chemical use in 2 ways...

    If its safe enough to use, why give warnings on the bottle about the safety requirements during mixing and use ?

    If its safe enough to eat, then its safe enough to use on the garden. Why would we put anything on plants, we wouldn't put on or in ourselves ?
     
  9. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    because laziness on my part in not stopping them and probably stupidity on my part for not stopping them and living in a house full of drunken males in their early 20's - one of the drunken males tried to prove how safe glysophate was ( he was a groundsman/greenkeeper)- - he soaked a piece of steak in zero and gave it to his jack russel.

    we buried the jack russel the next day.
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    don't know that i would want to consume any of the man made chemical applications around the traps, especially glypho'?

    the super strength glypho' used by farmers they need to wear space suits to make sure there is no contact with the chemical, haven't read the bottle of late but reckon there would be cautions on what gardeners use as well?

    we find we need no man made chemical applications and that includes fertilisers in our gardens, we are quiet satisfied with our providence from the garden.

    paradisi, wow sounds a bit cruel but!! suppose the proof is in the eating not in the pudding, reckon we might have different feeling for us and our dog.

    len
     
  11. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Tezza - there certainly has been a lot of 'debate' here on this subject over time. The reason it has gone pear shaped in the past, IMHO, is that people have been unwilling to respect each others views and the discussion has turned nasty. This is certainly not something we want to see again.

    It would however be naive to think that people visiting here are never going to use the product or that if they are going to do so, they are not welcome here. After all, what we should be aiming to do is heighten awareness of the dangers and if that results in a decrease in usage, then something has been achieved.
     
  12. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Been there, done that... almost bought the t-shirt.

    Would it be the overall opinion that anything designed to cause harm or kill plant or animal has the potential to cause harm to the opposing species (Pesticides having negative effect on plants, herbicides having negative effect on humans (and animals) ?

    What other opinions are there... I am full of questions on the topic, but am finding it difficult to have a logical debate/discussion on the topic without the subject becoming a joke.
     
  13. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    We live on a small acerage and the neighbouring property is planting a crop of Canola. This is i think the third or fourth attempt within a couple of months to get it to strike. In between attempts they are out with tractor and boom spray spraying. I assuming glyphosate as yellowing takes less than a week.

    We have been establishing our vegie garden which happens to be within a 50 metre stones throw of this paddock. We have a TOTAL organic philosophy and am wondering how we can protect our vegetable garden from drift. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    A creek runs past between the two properties and there is strong potential for contamination. I am sure i read somewhere that the chemical can not be used near creeks or any waterways. What is the rule of thumb for distance between spray and waterways ?

    The properties owner plans to remove the Willow trees growing in the creek. The plan is to remove the willow and paint the stumps with full strength glyphosate (in the creek). Am i wrong in thinking this is an environmental no, no ?
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    My apologies for all the questions... I promise this is the last one for now...

    Smoking is now banned in many pubs and clubs. In Tasmania one can be fined for smoking in the car wth a child under (i think) 18.

    Alcohol can not be consumed in certain public places and we are required to remain under .05 if driving a car.

    If as the owner or tenant of a property, we do not want any kind of chemical on or around the property, do we have the right to state such fact to council or other entity and politely ask them not to spray near ones property ?

    Can one truly call themselves "Chemical Free" in a society where chemical exposure begins when we leave our driveway ?
     
  15. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    YES! - it's like your neighbours throwing a loud party at night or spray painting a car when your washing is out.
    Ask your neighbours nicely when they will be spraying, then get some independant enviro monitoring dudes to set up some gear on the day n get it analysed, if no then you know your neighbours took note of the prevailing winds and are at least a bit politically correct, if you do come up with something then they are in the nice warm organic stuff. I did a lot of air monitoring for short chain and PA hydrocarbons with the re-development of a train yard near a school and the regulations and fines are pretty full on. If you are concerned - esp. if you have kids running around then go for it (and dont trust internal audits/testing if they are into that stuff - enviro work is very competitive and that junk gets... um... ahhh... very rarely... some times often... lost and/or modified - 1/2 the reason i left the field).

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  16. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    Hi....Unfortunatly im not rocket brained level...


    Reason im against herbicides and pesticides............

    That stuff kills.... :axe:

    Everthing is interconnected,the frog eats the bug that eats the plant,the human eats the plant etc etc..

    kill the plant and you kill everything....

    making kill proof plants is not a great idea.....why just roundup resistant.......

    i thought making vegies grow in salty water would be a big spinoff,seeing theres allmost unlimited amount of that around........

    Tezza
     
  17. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I saw this qute at he Care2 website just after reading this reply...

    "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe."

    - John Muir, conservationist.
     
  18. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I think common law allows you to be free from the spray drift caused by your neighbours. proving it & fighting it in court would be very costly

    Once the ecuadorian and columbian governments get the spraying stopped people might really start to take notice.

    sadly we will get to the stage of DDT - where so many farmers sons (and occassionally daughters) were handicapped either physically or mentally because daddy used the poisons.
     
  19. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    I have a lot of experience regarding issues of being poisoned by spray drift etc :(

    I posted the contents of my Roundup file of a previous thread - dont really have the energy to do it again of find it - typing is very difficult for me due to being poisoned by Organophosphates ( result I am an incomplete quadruplegic ) and dont be fooled Roundup IS a OP :evil:

    in practice there is nothing you can do about neigbours spray drift unless you have $$$$$$$$$$ to spend on legal action - it stinks but thats the truth - and the reason we have had to move 5 times - and the reason I never feel safe - any day our neighbour could decide to grow commercial veggies and we can do nothing except pack up and move

    frosty
     
  20. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: glyphosate use in a permaculture environment...

    vested interest by the compnay that makes roundup wanting control over seed and farmers, hence they make roundup ready plants, that won't grow unless they get dosed with roundup for weed control at certain stages, is as i have heard it explained. so the farmer pays through the nose for seed and license to grow seed and then needs to pay for super strength chemical, and special clothing to wear while mixing and using it.

    len
     

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