Global Warming

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Flying Binghy, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    those in pakistan are going to perish due to what?? will it be because australia didn't close it's coal fired power stations down and create our own poor at that level who will perish from lack of food and water at least. 2 wrongs are NOT going to make a right?? i think. if the system has short comings it is a system supprted by our gov's for an on behalf of profit makers and shareholders, then fix thsoe who are suppsoed to mange our country as well as the system, devise an economical replacement for coal power one that delivers power to every one who can avail of it affordably. creating desperate poor level here will not help those in other countries that already suffer, and if you have them shut their coal fired power statons down? what then for their already destitute poor??

    len
     
  2. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    ... we need to establish clean industry to replace coal BEFORE getting rid of coal... In Australia for example, we could realistically power our own homes with solar and wind... then the hard part would be replacing the income currently derived from coal... Tourism may be an out for a small place like Tasmania, but it isn't going to support the country in the way coal does now.
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yep soalr wind in dual format on rooves of aussie homes is good i recognise that but it has to be stand alone so each home takes no power from the grid at all tha would cut coal fired needs directly, but and yes hereare some buts in our agreement hee, how many homes (that is places where people live are going to be required to get involved?) that is the vexing question and just in case you want to try some maths say with 20 mil people ther are 5 mill homes to comfort them in, and the variable, some are renting, some are flats and units, some are the wealthy and affluent who realy could give a damn(they are the high end resorce users the yuppies). now i haven't mentioned industry in there or tourism, theme parks, motels hotels you name it.

    the way i see it this new system will need all but total compliance includes hospitals and all, not good having one measly power station in each state to provide some cheap power hey?

    now the biggy for this to happen and i remind you i am in agreeance renewable componentry needs to be affordable so there is no need for subsidy which takes its funds from education, public health and mergency services to anema few. subsidies as can be seen by teh solar rort encourage the greed of the suppliers and installers to rake more than their share, after all the subsidy was for eh consumer to off se cost not for the industry to rake in more profit. now the thing that mnay renewables supporters forget is renewables are very obscelescence that is from 10 years out to around maybe 20 it realy all needs replacing again, but this time whom ever happens to own the home with that renewable power is up for a whopping bill. there is lots of maintenance along the way especially with panels as those clear covers need to be kept clear for the pv cells to work at their less then perfect efficiency rate.

    in short make it affordable and go for it. but dual would be the only way and people seem to forget they make no power ethier without sun or wind so batteries will be running down in power so some sort of gen' set might be needed along with buyin expensive efficient fridges and freezer.

    by all mean eric go for it i'll be righ there with you i'm one of those pensioner types struggling to live now so can't afford any luxuries even forteh sake of um err environment whatever.

    do the math

    len
     
  4. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    I understand what you mean by being a "pensioner type"... but I'm thinking of my kids in 10 or 20 years time... we have to think and make decisions today for the sake of tomorrow... painful though it may be.
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yues that too but we are here and now and livng and mnay more like us will still be here an living 10,20,30 -100 years from now that is how it has been and always will be. look after the people first, then plan for the other but i will say again as now here in 2010 in 2090 it will still have to be affordable by the poorer majority. a return to family homes with room for extended families might go along way to helping social issues, but aussies don't favour extended families. oh a person on another group in similar chat thread said they have no more sympathy left for the poor on welfare, dunno what we are supposed to do with us? but there ya go hey the whole welfare issue the person feels is taking funds from areas that might help them, mans inhumanity to man hey eric? got a relative like that and all hey? does not like the lower socio economic classes many of these threads can show that side of human nature, sad!

    there is enough money and more in the world to fix all the issues of poor and destitute people of the world, just the rich won't share it. the upper ecahlon has said they would like to see 95% of the population gone. read that a long time ago now dunno where but it was shocking in its meaning.

    len
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Does the term 'indistrial revolution' mean anything to you?


    That's not our past, that's what our future looks like.

    Already been done; it's called permaculture.

    Global permaculture.

    I think you have that ass about. Without a planet that is conducive to human habitation, there will not be any people to 'look after'.

    Perhaps it is time for us to point out to them the folly of their ways?

    One question for you, Len. Have you ever read any of Holmgren's essays, and if so, do you consider the co-founder of the permaculture movement to be a peddler of 'rubbery figures'?

    Cheerio, Markos.
     
  7. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I am so glad we have you doing the things you do Marko
    peace and love. Mark
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    My income is perhaps on the same level as yours Len, the Carers payment doesn't go far. But I look past my here and now to focus on what i'm going to leave behind. My mind (and heart) won't let me think with any other attitude. I do my best with what i have now and try to encourage Green/Permacultural initiatives for my own family and anyone else prepared and ready to listen...
     
  9. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    so it's australias industrial revolution that is going to lead to the direct demise of all those pakistan people???

    i think permaculture might be being over rated here as a fix all does! the green is that tree huging green pc have any answers to affordable food, power, water and fuel for the poor or affordable replacements? i think not and reading some ones essay's on the matter will be full of the same hype. i inffered something in an earlier post on another thread about little lord fauntelroy's sitting in the shadows with vested interest in their own powers and ego's, maybe i'm closer to the ruth than one might think.?? anyones essay is as rubbery as anything realy because all it is, is that persons putting their untried and untested ideas on paper. like the greens bloke going to save all the fishes of the east coast now that's been well thought out hasn't it? and he has trouble saving trees. we need reality that takes into considertion those who are doing it tuff now.

    len
     
  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    If 'reality' means that we can only ever think about ourselves, in our own time (and by doing so repeat the mistakes of the past), then I am afraid that there really is no hope for those yet to come.

    If you believe that Holmgren's work (and by extension - permaculture) is full of 'hype', may I ask why it is that you even bother to grace us with your presence?
     
  11. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    there is enough money and more in the world to fix all the issues of poor and destitute people of the world, just the rich won't share it. the upper ecahlon has said they would like to see 95% of the population gone. read that a long time ago now dunno where but it was shocking in its meaning.


    No chance of that Len ... without the impoverished majority to provide the cheap labour needed to create their obscene wealth there wouldn't be any "upper echelons".
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    well put helen. man's inhumanity to man share divident rises come at the cost to the poor in the world.

    sorry markos, i don't see any fringe factors as help to the needs of the poor or the planet (tree hugging has not delivered) so perma-c has failed to deliver on its ideals in the maybe 30 years i have been aware of it when molleson threw a mattress down in a backyard someplace cut a hole in it planted a banana then mulched the lot to tell the world we need to be responsible in our minds and homes that is not yet common practise(you seen the overflowing land fill bins on collection day they are the great majority) there are masses out there who have no idea about or what p/c is there are others that see it as that failed nimben hippy thing attracting people with different hair styles and tea cosies on their heads smoking instead of mowing the lawn with low social morals. as it has failed to make itelf identifiable because then the push came to make money out of it(many new comers pulled away then), when that too failed they wetried to get it as cucciculum in schools obviously that was dooed to fail in all but exclusive schools as there is no carreer path. so now all of a sudden someone s going to pop up and say this is pemaculture you must do it our way??? others can attack me as much as they like it doesn't cahnge the actuality of pemaculture and its failue to deliver.

    many leave these forums or don't join because they ar e full of ths sort of topic and feeling, very little free simple help offered, forums out there are devoid of posts. the feed back i alone get tells me in no time soon is pema-c going to have any recognition or following in the broader community, it would take an act of parliament the there would be even more people against the enforcers. again i say very many ahve no idea what IT is those that do have an opinion of it that as far as they are concerned forget it.

    try coming outside the box and the comfort zone.

    len
     
  13. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    permaculture or suicide? I choose permaculture.
    I am not sure what you are trying to say Len - perhaps it is just an incoherant rant and we all need them from time to time, but permaculture is working well for me and the interest in my area is growing all the time. Productive food growing is happening and community is developing and fast too. Perhaps you are sore that there are few "handouts" within the system and the bounty is going to those who do the work and not to those who do the rant.
    I love the quote I saw somewhere
    "be content with what you have and may you find serenity and tranquility in a world that you may not understand" - very nice words indeed.
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Better to live and die trying than to try and live dieing...
     
  15. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Len

    I have attempted to respond as follows:

    Concerning "fringe factors":

    There is much to be gained from the 'fringes'. Holmgren reminds us of this very point in principle 11: Use Edges and Value the Marginal. Think about African-American activists living in the USA during the 50-60s. Do you think this 'factor' failed to 'help' the cause of all marginalised people around the world? Think about the Indigenous people of Australia during the 60-70s. Did they not 'help' not only themselves to achieve sovereignty, but all people from oppressed backgrounds? Think of the women, the GLBTI community. Think of the struggle we endured during the 70-80s in order to be treated as equals - both in the 'eyes of the law', and among the 'common man in the street'. Think of the environmental activists from the 80-90s. The Franklin River (Tas) would be naught but a freezing, mono-cultural water catchment if not for those 'tea-cosy' wearing 'hippies'. Social conservatism is an evil thing. It marginalises people, and in doing so, it marginalises those very elements of human endeavour that what see ecological services protected for all of humanity - both those of the present time, and those yet to come.

    From the very beginning, both Mollison and Holmgren were both strong advocates of communities working together as an activist collective in order to realise a shared and sustainable 'destiny' (Mollison & Holmgren, 1978, p 94):

    A city or community involved in permaculture is taking an important step towards controlling its destiny; consultancy groups can advise and monitor dangerous substances in the environment; irresponsible industry and public authority is thus identified and can be regulated or replaced...

    Don't blame permaculture for the failings of the system. For more than 30-years permaculturalists (and many others of a similar ideal) have been working very hard at 'monitoring and identifying irresponsible industry and public authorities', sometimes at great expense to one's own well-being. Gains are being made, but the shear weight, power and wealth of the corrupt system that we are fighting means that we still have a long way to go. Ill-informed comment from ignorant sectors of conservative society do little to aid the cause. Hence my suggestion that those who don't really understand permaculture should stop trying to peddle 'organic gardening' as it mainstay. Permaculture is about people - people first and foremost protecting the planet, and at the same time caring for each other. If the last were not true, then would not even bother trying to engage you in this conversation. Once again, I urge you to read more widely on the subject. If, for whatever reason you are unable to do this, there are other means by which you can inform yourself of the true meaning of permaculture. I would be more than happy to help you pursue these avenues of learning if you should so choose.

    Good. Those who failed to understand the very basic ethos of permaculture are probably better off not being part of the current picture in its delivery. Yes, you do feel that you are being attacked, I can see this. However, if you continue to put yourself in the place of the 'victim', then you are surely going to feel oppressed. If however you were to decide to stop playing this 'woe is me' role, then you would surely see that through positivism comes positive outcomes. We are not your enemies, Len. You are your own worst enemy. I realise that you struggle with the basics of 'science vs faith', and before you accuse me of 'attacking' or 'getting personal' (as you have continually done in the past), remember that it is you that invites people to visit your website, and to (one would imagine) read your writings. Well, I have taken you up on your offer, Len. I have visited your website, and I have read from all of your writings, including:

    Permaculture occurs when someone anyone is of the opinion that we can no longer keep pillaging and wrecking this planets resources...

    Source: Len's Garden - Permaculture Essay

    Well, I am here to tell you, Len, that I am of the above 'opinion'.

    I disagree. This particular forum is literally chock full of information - everything from the most basic of permaculture thought, to the most profound. If anyone was to ever think about practicing permaculture, then why would they not hang around here for a while? Here one can interact with a hugely diverse group of people on subject matter equally as huge. Permaculture is not a 'cult', Len. It is not something that endears itself to 'true believers'. It is merely a design-science based system that gives people a foundation on which to build their own universe. I realise that this smacks in the face of your own ethos, Len, but I am afraid that in the global village there are many paths that one may to choose to follow. Just because it does not fit your own ethos does not mean that it is not right - there is a seat at the global permaculture assembly for every human thought and endeavour, Len. We don't need, nor wish to work within the current system of corrupt governance. We'll work with them (and against them, where/when need be), and eventually they will fall aside and true democracy through the people, by the people will prevail.

    :D Man, I have been living 'outside of the box and the comfort zone' all my life. Please understand that I am not your enemy. We may have some fundamental differences of belief, but if you look really hard I am sure you will see that we have more in common than not.

    Cheerio, and peace to you, Markos.

    Reference: Mollison & Holmgren (1978 ) Permaculture One. Stanley, Tasmania: Tagari.
     
  16. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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  17. .

    Our ever changing Climate through the Ages… “…Traffic across the Alpine passes, as shown by the transmission of culture, became important about 1800 B.C. when the Brenner Pass first became traversable, and reached a maximum at the end of the Bronze Age and in the early Hallstatt period, or about 1200-900 B.C. The valley settlements of the late Hallstatt period developed independently apparently in complete isolation, and traffic across the passes was at a minimum. There was a slight revival at the end of the La Tene period and in the early Roman Empire (200 B.C. to A.D. 0 ) but it was not until between A.D. 700 and 1000 that this traffic again developed on a considerable scale. There was a re-advance of the glaciers in the western Alps about A.D. 1300, followed by a retreat to a minimum extent in the fifteenth century. Near the end of the sixteenth century the glaciers advanced rapidly and about 1605 they overran settlements which had been occupied since the beginning of history. About the same time the glaciers advanced in the Eastern Alps, Iceland, where they almost reached the moraines of the late Glacial stages, and probably in other parts of the world and the period from 1600 to 1850 has been termed the “little ice age.” There were minor maxima of glaciations about 1820 and 1850 since then the glaciers and ice sheets have been in rapid retreat in all parts of the world…”

    Pg 301, Climate through the Ages, C. E. P. Brooks






    .
     
  18. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Fasinating.
    Perhaps cos I'm still really a newbie that I see people in general are moving towards less pesticides if not less herbicides.
    I see pairs of Hawks flying over the farmland next to the highways, these used to be rare and usually on the back roads.

    Maybe things are different here.

    You only fail when you give up.
    Sweet words dont make a pudding.
     
  19. andybarks

    andybarks Junior Member

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    Fascinating, I love a good climate-change cum human morality debate.

    I think whether or not climate change is found to be anthropogenically caused or not, isn't the big issue. There is irrefutable proof that we are in a climate that is rapidly increasing in CO2 levels, aswell as average surface temperatures. It would be naive of us to believe that our industrial revolution is not in some way changing the environment. Even the controversial climate change professor at my Univeristy, Ian Plimer (anyone ever heard of him) who is fighting AGAINST the people who say climate change is anthropogenic, in private sometimes doubts the claims.
    I think the major issue we should be looking at is population growth, and how many species of animals and plants we are wiping out daily. We are right now, in a bigger extinction event than the K-T meteorite that killed off all the dinosaurs.
    I'm studying a phd in geothermal energy at uni and am hoping that sustainable energy will take off in the near future. My project is actually over in India in the Eastern Ghats, where there is the capacity to power the whole country over for thousands of years with the right science. I personally don't think Australia is going to have any problems at all in the future regarding energy, and fossil fuel consumption. We are one of the hottest countries in the world, making for good solar power, and south australia has massive potential for geothermal power production, it's just getting the funding from the govt to support us is the problem.
     
  20. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Interesting new book "Merchants of Doubt" on how free market fundamentalism is the driver for scientific deniers- tobacco industry, Rachel Carson etc
    Just listened to the author here (Yank).
    https://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/default.htm
    The audio should be available in a day or two
     

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