General discussion on Ethics, Political Structures and understanding others views

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by gardenlen, Aug 11, 2013.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    tantum pro civitus indeed

    thank you professor pragmatist :)
    you are not getting off so easy.

    explain to me again about the need for this centralised elite that can do this for the broader good:)
    having the agenda disrupted by the public is not an option, that is why we need strong elements of control.

    no, i'm joking really, it is just - you don't usually sound this way.
    perhaps if you take off the black hood, :)
    sorry, really,,,,call it my condition.
    you know i like you, i'm just taking the piss....

    you turn dam fast for an old fella though.

    i'd like to dedicate my next song to 'those no longer with us'

    And now, the end is here
    And so I face the final curtain
    My friend, I'll say it clear
    I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
    I've lived a life that's full
    I traveled each and ev'ry highway
    And more, much more than this, I did it my way

    Regrets, I've had a few
    But then again, too few to mention
    I did what I had to do and saw it through without exemption
    I planned each charted course, each careful step along the byway
    And more, much more than this, I did it my way

    Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
    When I bit off more than I could chew
    But through it all, when there was doubt
    I ate it up and spit it out
    I faced it all and I stood tall and did it my way

    I've loved, I've laughed and cried
    I've had my fill, my share of losing
    And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing
    To think I did all that
    And may I say, not in a shy way,
    "Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it my way"

    For what is a man, what has he got?
    If not himself, then he has naught
    To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels
    The record shows I took the blows and did it my way!

    Yes, it was my way
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    The wise one amongst us deserves 2 or 4 bottles of a good red wine. (Please note, my county produces an incredible amount of cranberries which are sold to Ocean Spray)

    Yes, I was referring to Findhorn Intentional Community which I found out about months before my marriage via the book.

    For the record, I never intended on Len leaving, he has been on ignore (as others are) for a long time now because my energy is best spent elsewhere., like promoting and helping in something I believe in, AKA Permaculture. In fact, I still want to teach on my property and help the people of my area. Every single damn day it is all I think about, however, for example, Eco (the mod) knows exactly how hard I have it here in America compared to most other people.

    So with that said, clueless as to what occurred since I last posted. How are you Markos?
     
  3. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Rest assured that "what" Len was trying to say was not the issue. Rather it was "how" he tried to say it.
    Waxing accusatory and attacking the poster instead of the message, failure to read the links he objected to, running ongoing battles on the same subject in multiple threads. Generally being extremely disruptive and disrespectful (churlish) ... over a long period of time, got him banned. Len posted a LOT, but didn't actually participate in the conversation.

    I feel sadness also.

    I found this bit today,
    I have been wondering how we, as a Permaculture community, could have done better for Len.
     
  4. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I tried engaging him in conversation to find out what was at the heart of his issues and this includes private messages. I never did fully understand. While I regret that it had to come to a ban, I also understand the reason behind it: try to post constructively. While we've all probably either derailed a thread or have helped derail a thread, it's never been to the same extent. Kimbo might be as rambunctious as Len, but even in his Socratic way Kimbo's posts usually ends up being about the subject at heart and gives people a different way of looking at things.

    I honestly don't know how we could have dealt with Len better without treating him like a child and putting all of his messages in to moderation via a queue. Which may have had the exact same affect anyway. It would be easy to say that he is an angry person, but that is simplistic at best and does nothing to solve the reasoning behind that anger.

    On the flip side of the coin, this is a permaculture forum. If you dislike permaculture and think it's useless, then why bother being here?
     
  5. Xio

    Xio Junior Member

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    Len might not have been the most articulate of posters, but he started this thread on inter alia the subject of ethics, a trait not so common up & down the food chain. The first 2 responses to Len's were quite frankly inflammatory or worse IMO condascending & on it goes.
    It's all very well to take the moral high ground on posts that one doesn't agree with but it would have been more beneficial to attempt to really find out what drives the comment of an individual such as Len as it's more than likely or quite possible that there there is something of substance in a convulated message. Instead Len gets hammered.
    I thought permaculture was something for everyone but I continue to read an elitist viewpoint by a few on big picture issues & those posters don't appear to be very active on the practice of what this forum is supposed to be fundamentally concerned with. You boys have lost me.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    The last time I actually engaged in talking to him I noted he had medical issues, what they were I do not know... ..it's really none of my business. However, with that said, and the current drama llama issues I have seen this month IRL, I realize there needs to be serious mental & physical health needs in any community, with appropriate technology.

    ...Just exactly why does suturing a GSW (Gun Shot Wound) in Bangkok only cost $5US but over $2500US for the same wound in the US.

    I am more of a spirituality over religion person, but I realize there is also a need for spiritual healing for some people currently in the world, which IDEP takes care of in their Permaculture series.

    Which lastly, in my own town there is an intentional community running on their own power, which is not tied into the Electric CO-OP which is what I run off of. My community back in the 1900's was told we were unworthy of electricity so this county built its own infrastructure & power stations as part of a giant CO-OP. We are even testing with wave energy from offshore despite a high amount of dangerous rogue waves which get worse each year.

    Kimbo where was I going with this?
     
  7. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    rogue wild monster waves disrupting power and threatening danger

    rogue wild monster waves disrupting power and threatening danger..

    or riddled with small arms on auto,,,trying to get them down to half that, with chicken on a stick thrown in.

    rambunctious? rambunctious tra la la?
    oh well, that i suppose and barking mad.

    so rambunctious is not on either?
    let me guess, islam is ok though......bwhhaacough
    :)
    rambunctious, rambunction rambunctioner rambunctioning - nup, not one of mine.

    i'm more your misanthropic neotanist - misunderstood - polemic and in the early stages of alzheimers such that most of my time is spent getting angry about things i'd forgotten i'd gotten angry with.....
    neotany neotanist neotanising.....this is just something i fall into when my diminished resources sum a certain way.

    Pak ,)
    your government is shutting down man, so how's it going in the belly of the beast....?
    should i buy extra rice today?

    :)
     
  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Did it? Huh.... Pimps up and Mermaids down.

    With regards to my politics... ..I am a Surfer & I am Permaculturalist & Perhaps Generation 1 that embraces the fact that...
    [​IMG]

    The Republicans have shut down not so much the government, but NASA (Big Mistake) the EPA, and all the National Parks, which means with each passing day... ..the D.C. tourist areas are shut down, thus the city is losing tons of money from tourism which will not stand well for very long so I am not too concerned since D.C. is mostly or was mostly the last time I was there... a Slum, or the Projects.

    .....and let's look at that word "projects".... it's just another word for experiment....

    ... A law was passed, and Republicans are trying to screw with something the people voted in. It has put literally millions of people out of work, so in other words, it is normal 1% politics.

    I got extra Sugar & Rice today in my monthly provisions. :D
     
  9. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Xio, in relation to your post, below:

    Len's name might appear at the beginning of this thread, but he didn't start it. This thread was started by Grahame (in his role as moderator) in an attempt to corral one of Len's rambling posts:

    As to the 'first 2 responses' (noting a question was asked). The very first was anything but 'inflammatory or ... condascending [sic]'. Rather it was most polite in tone:

    The second, granted while not as polite as the first, ended with an invitation (one of hundreds freely and sincerely given out over the years) to further discuss any issues the OP might have had with the topic material in another, appropriate thread:

    The above was not a 'hammering' of Len, but merely just another attempt at engaging him in a conversation. Discussions around morals and ethics was something Len was loath to enter into, because when it came down to brass tacks, Len never had anything of substance to contribute. His mainstay was the Ten Commandments (he preferred the KJV - a 400-year old text), and anything else - either prior or since - was simply regarded by Len as an 'apostasy'.

    Permaculture is 'something for everyone'. For around a decade now the PRI Forum has been a place where people who share the vision - the ethics and principles - can come together in a non-threating manner and share their individual views. However, the PRI Forum is not a place for people who persist in negative, disruptive, indeed any sort of behaviour (through the written word) that is the antithesis of permaculture.

    I can assure you that in the real world, and perhaps to a lessor degree here, any permaculture devotee who places her/himself above others in an 'elitist' manner does not last very long, in either theory or practice. This is not to say that there are not 'elite' permaculture theorists and practitioners operating around the world. Their accolades carefully bestowed upon them by those who are appreciative of all the time and effort they have put into making the world a better place.

    Just for the record, in my experience the PRI Forum is frequented by a fairly even representative of the broader (global) community, and this includes people who identify across the gender spectrum. So by suggesting (in your sign off) that it is the domain of 'boys' only, is in itself 'inflammatory and condescending'.

    If you, Xio, after 23-posts feel that you have earned the right to decide who here (including your good self) is worthy of membership or not, so be it. Just don't slam the door on your way out.

    Cheerio, Markos
     
  10. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Up until a month ago I ran a little second hand bookshop. For three and a half years I saw a lot of 'Lens' come through the door on a daily basis. Local people mostly and also mostly over 60, who for some reason were/are all incredibly bitter and generally unhappy with their lot and the parlous state of the world as they see it. Day in and day out I listened to exactly the same sort of diatribes from these people that Len espoused here. In every case they looked to blame others, the council, the government, the youth, the education system and on and on. So I would sit and listen and keep my mouth firmly shut and smile politely occasionally.
    On the few occasions that I tried to delicately challenge a certain inaccurate statement I would be met with barely contained hostility and summarily dismissed.

    Eventually the end came for me, one day several weeks ago, when two women who have been nurses in this area for close to forty years came in, one of whom I know very well, and started in on the usual depressing stuff. When one of them said with great gusto that 'boat people' should be 'bombed out of the fuckin' water before they get here' and the other heartily agreed, I had had enough.

    My little shop didn't owe me anything and our lease was up, I closed the door and walked away. I couldn't listen to this toxic stuff six days a week any more. I now stay at home developing our property. So it is, that I found it very hard to come onto this permaculture forum and read some of the same sort of ignorant, ugly stuff over and over.

    I'm sorry that it came to exclusion but I think it was the right choice in a difficult situation.
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I can assure all that this exact process was undertaken over several months will all members of the moderation team giving Len regular feedback about how to communicate his message without causing offence. He appeared to have learned from the process and a few months back was once again allowed free reign, but immediately reverted to his previous communication style.

    The moderation team have genuinely attempted to ensure that Len's opinions could be expressed whilst maintain collegial communication but it proved impossible. We have lost other valued contributors along the way who got tired of the bickering.

    Let's now move on.
     
  12. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Pak, well and busy as ever over (under) here, thanks. I trust you are OK, my friend?

    That's a mighty fine looking label! Pity the energy expended in transporting across the globe precludes my having a taste. Oh well, perhaps one day when I get 'the Markos' up and sailing, I'll call into the nearest port on your good continent that retails Sea Mist, and have myself a darn good quaff. In the meantime, here's one of the local drops that's currently keeping me sane (2 glasses a night, 4 on Saturdays):

    [​IMG]

    Ahh, Findhorn, and in particular Hawken's (1975) book. I must admit I have never read it in its entirety. Although I did dip into its pages on more than one occasion many years ago while WWOOFing with a witch (another long story...). Perhaps it's time for me to read it? I'll put it on 'the list' (currently groaning under the metaphorical weight of about 200 titles).

    Personally, without ever knowing your actual circumstances, I've always admired your tenacity (gleaned from reading between the lines), and if it is teaching you are keen to engage in, please let me tell you that your contributions to this forum go a long way in delivering the same.

    Take care over (up) there, M
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Dear eco4560: On behalf of the non-moderating contributors to this forum, I would just like to say how much we appreciate the time and effort all of the moderators put into maintaining the forum in an attempt to keep it as collegial as possible. Your tireless efforts do not go unnoticed. Thanks, M.
     
  14. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    I'm sorry that your little shop no longer is. I was looking forward to getting over there (on my extended research trip next year). I'm a bibliophile, and second-hand bookshops are my natural haunt. At the same time, I can completely understand we it is that you decided to up sticks - people can be so mean, without really ever knowing the extent they hurt others. Negativity has an unending ability to wear away at one's resolve to always see the world as a glass half full. Perhaps it is for the best that you escaped. When I read the 'letters to the editor' column in our local rags (we have two: one part of the Fairfax Regional Media chain, the other a so-called independent), and especially the online responses to the same, it is difficult to not think one lives in a community that is filled to the brim with people whom their sole purpose in life is to spread hate, bile and spite. But, in reality, these people are vastly outnumbered by those who are kind, gentle and accepting, or in the very least tolerant, forgiving and open to the 'alternative' lifestyles of others. I hope all is going well on your property, MITH, and that you continue to visit us here, at the PRI Forum, and contribute in any capacity you feel comfortable with. Regards, M.
     
  15. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Thanks Mark, I miss the shop at times and those with whom I had regular, pleasant and entertaining chats. It can be overwhelming when the toxic stuff seems to drown out the good stuff - and those (negatives) seem to be the people who shout loudest.

    Second hand bookshops are an endangered species sadly. We had a sale and sold some of our books in the last couple of weeks. Then we gave quite a bit away. Then we took a few thousand books that were destined for recycling and we made 'Book Ridge' behind the vegie garden and in the greater Food Forest area. A book hugelkulture. Then we planted a Cox's Orange Pippin Apple and a Peach on it and sowed some buckwheat for good measure. With every day devoted to growing food, preserving, cooking, tending animals and learning new things I am happy as anyone has a right to be and I will stick around here to be sure. :)
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Markos, what I find interesting... and follow my medicated state a moment. Masanobu, Emilia Hazelip, Sepp Holzer, Findhorn, and Bill Mollison / Holgrem (not getting into that) all at roughly the same time, in multiple parts of the globe work in an organic method that needed intense observation of one form or another to come together to bring me here. I find it... ..amazing that after being on the internet since Compuserve was a BBS that I see all those above listed people suddenly practicing parts or all of the same thing, a design method that brought about by organic, healthy food to places that should be impossible by Industrial Ag standards.

    And thank you for the compliment re: teaching. :blush:
     
  17. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Thanks Markos - it is indeed a labour of love.
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Markos is Spot On... You Guys Do a Fantastic Job, Eco... and I have let you all down on several occasions... all be it for other things i am doing for the same cause... but none the less my moderation duties have been pathetic and you all deserve to be congratulated...
     
  19. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    If you're up to the task, click on Len's name and then check his posts in various other threads from the past few months. Read the threads and you will find that people have indeed asked him directly, many times, to no avail.
     
  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Ive seen many of Xios posts on other forums(with Len) for quite a while before he came here
    Based on that I'm pretty sure Xio would prefer going back to reading Andrew Bolt and listening to Alan Jones were he can nod in agreement while plotting his next astroturfing project,instead of attempting to justify his views with facts and logic or be open to new ideas on here.


    No great loss

    Come back SOP
    that is a great loss
     

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