Frith - you can not buy it.

Discussion in 'General chat' started by kimbo.parker, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    it is fairly pissing down with inspiration here at the forum

    she can be Polly if it pleases you! ...

    i went to the polycentric world of the earth stewards ( thinking i'd get a heads up on what she'd need to be a good Polly for you...)

    wow.
    twice in one day i have been inspired by articles linked here.
    the Frith certainly feels good and right at home there.
    manna for the soul.
    thanks heaps.
    :clap:

    k
     
  2. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Yet look at NYC, multiple ethic groups, true diversity in religion but the culture is what? There is little italy, chinatown, japantown, germantown, hell's kitchen (irish) and more. Would the culture I then grew up with be that of Peter Gatien? or what would it be then Kimbo?

    Interestingly enough, in your first post btw, you literally described an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation. Picard after passing out lived a life with a flute under the village / nation system you suggested. Sadly the world he visited died out due to the system that you described as well. The episode is called, "The Inner Light"




    Kimbo, do you really think the whole worlds municipality system has to change so dramatically? You think this is something to meditate on?
     
  3. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Firstly, nice to see you again Grahame!

    Well Kimbo, you're a thought provoking bastard as usual. Running with this Frith thing(and thank you for digging this word out of antiquity). I can see the point of multiculturalism being bad in the sense that forcing a bunch of unlike people in to the same place causes problems(which reminds me, I need to read those chapters at work tomorrow, thanks Marko). People tend to stick with "their kind". However, understanding other cultural biases also helps us to be a little more patient with one another, though I'm not sure if that falls under your usage of the word multiculturalism.

    As far as permaculture, biodiversity and such goes: make your zone 4 & 5 really big. Without agriculture, we wouldn't have settlements, and therefore frith. This is not to say that you couldn't make a settlement without agriculture, but it's just how the historians think it went and that could very well be a bias in and of itself. If I ran in to a place that could supply all my needs year round without me having to lift a finger, then you bet I'd set up camp. Those places may have existed in Europe many centuries ago, but you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of them now except maybe in South America(if you can stop them from cutting it all down to plant soy beans). So we don't have much of a choice but to design for it now. Though I guess we could all just put bags over our heads and wait for the end. Time for sleep.
     
  4. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    pak - i'll do it here and now


    i do pak, and i will meditate on it here and now.

    first thought ; only the ones with a problem routed in culture friction.

    no problem, no fix required....that said, i see lots of problem along those lines -

    try this; the big (southern?) christian lobby in the US that manages to exert huge influence of the public education curriculum.
    such that the science of evolution is somewhat understated due to the sensitivities of creationists.

    i call that culture clash ( maybe others do as well ) - i would find it culturally imperilling and my Frith would need to address it....probably by taking my mob to a more culturally compatible place -San Diago? ( i'm only going by what an animated giraffe told me, and he was a New Yorker)

    which brings me to new york - i followed the link - but i was not sure about how one very astute Greedist, who had a strong pecuniary interest in being cross cultural relates to your point....which as far as i can tell....is having a hard time taking my point.

    try this; the municipalities across the developed world - will change, must change,,,,and not for my reasons of regaining Frith.
    but for the reasons outlined here;
    https://www.futurescenarios.org/content/view/12/26/index.html

    this link is to Holgrem's site - and i specifically refer to the 4 Descent Scenarios - all of which necessitate the rebuild or retrofit of municipalities as we know them today.

    all i am i doing is, proposing we sort out more than just the climate / energy response when we do this.

    within the 4 scenarios - and i might just take the stretch and call them the 'Permaculture Scenarios',,,,we are provided with the option of getting human settlement scaled correctly. In doing so, we could be using Permacultue Design to achieve permanence in culture - but we must remember 'culture' is not one thing -

    take my culture for instance - despite it's endangered remnant status - it seeks and it deserves to live.
    to do this it needs Frith, Frith requires place....and it requires neighbours that are synergistic, compatible, and similar,,,requiring more space - and so on and so forth.


    if NY for some reason - like the wrong scale or a decent bomb,,,,had to be made anew - would you propose to make it the same?

    i get the bit where already it seems to be villages of homogeneous cultures ( your ref to irish town, china town, the latin area etc etc ),,,enclaves?
    i get the bit where there is common ground - The Greedist paradigm - and so it works - and it seems to me you are calling this multiculturalism, and using it as an example of how multiculturalism is strong and works.

    i counter with NY is no fine example of anything - lest it be the capacity of people to get along when the money is good enough.


    i watched Seinfeld - it seems to me that Jerry and the gang are not of my culture at all.
    i watched Big Bang Theory - and i come away thinking who the hell watches this shit,,,i presume the indian guy, and the latino, and the weird skinny jewish guys all get along because they are only ethnically different - they are culturally homogeneous.

    to me, way outside the NY culture and sub cultures - i find it very very hard to relate....those people live like ants!
    i can not live like that,,,,i have not been trained ( or programmed to know f/all better?)

    _______________
    meditation over - i'm still solid
    :)
    k
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Peter Gaiten owned the limelight, which despite being in a brownstone church from when it was New Amsterdam was a place for multiple types of people to go and experience music in a club scene. Think Studio54 for the people of the 90's with less cocaine, but more X. My point is numerous people came together most nights to listen and mingle together to 4 types of music & concerts. Maybe I have a one of a kind jaded view for experiencing something most people never have, & sadly never will.

    If I was to rebuild it, I would do so with an eye for Permaculture from the rooftops to street level and everywhere else.

    Really?

    https://www.ny.com/museums/all.museums.html

    If you follow that link you will find over 80 Museums! of which over 60 are in Manhattan.

    Here's the list.

    Museums in New York City

    Alice Austen House Museum
    American Craft Museum
    American Folk Art Museum
    American Museum of Natural History
    American Museum of the Moving Image
    American Numismatic Society
    Americas Society
    Artists Space
    Asia Society and Museum

    Bronx Museum of the Arts
    The Brooklyn Botanic Gardens
    The Brooklyn Children's Museum
    The Brooklyn Museum of Art

    Carnegie Hall/Rose Museum
    Central Park Zoo/Wildlife Gallery
    The Children's Museum of the Arts

    Children's Museum of Manhattan
    The Cloisters
    Cooper-Hewitt

    Dahesh Museum
    Dia Center for the Arts
    The Drawing Center

    Ellis Island Museum
    Empire State Building Lobby Gallery

    Museum at FIT
    Forbes Magazine Galleries
    The Frick Collection

    Grey Art Gallery
    Goethe House
    Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum
    Guggenheim Museum SoHo

    Hayden Planetarium
    The Hispanic Society of America

    International Center of Photography
    Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum
    Isamu Noguchi Garden Museum

    Jewish Museum

    LaGuardia and Wagner Archives
    Lower East Side Tenement Museum

    Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum New York
    Merchant's House Museum
    Metropolitan Museum of Art
    The Morgan Library
    Mount Vernon Hotel Museum & Garden
    Municipal Art Society
    El Museo Del Barrio
    Museum for African Art
    Museum of American Financial History
    Museum of Chinese in the Americas
    Museum of Jewish Heritage
    Museum of Modern Art
    Museum of the City of New York
    Museum of the Moving Image
    Museum of Television and Radio

    National Academy Museum
    National Design Museum
    National Museum of the American Indian
    New Museum of Contemporary Art
    New York Botanical Garden
    New York City Fire Museum
    New York City Police Museum
    New York Hall of Science
    New-York Historical Society
    New York Public Library (yeah, there is a museum section)
    New York Transit Museum
    Nicholas Roerich Museum

    PS1 Contemporary Art Center
    Pierpont Morgan Library

    Queens Historical Society
    Queens Museum of Art

    Rose Center for Earth and Space

    Schomburg Center
    Seaman's Church Institute
    Snug Harbor Cultural Center
    Sony Wonder Technology Lab
    South Street Seaport Museum
    Staten Island Institute
    Studio Museum in Harlem

    Taipei Gallery
    Theodore Roosevelt Birthplace

    Ukrainian Museum

    Wave Hill
    Whitney Museum of American Art
    Whitney Museum/Philip Morris






    I'm glad I experienced Dali's artwork, and the musical stylings of Victor Borge amongst a great many other things with people from all walks of life.

    I'm surprised, I would think by now you would realize what you see on tv is not the real world... especially when it comes to a Metropolis.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  7. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    back pak

    "I'm surprised, I would think by now you would realize what you see on tv is not the real world... especially when it comes to a Metropolis"

    you should not be surprised, i'm a recluse, a hermit, i reason mainstream media reflects mainstream attitudes.

    you know of D. Adams - Hitchhikers Guide

    when i see your list of why NY is a fine example - it appears to be a fine example of museums,
    what i do with this,.

    is directly relate it to Golgafrinchins (spelling?) making documentaries of themselves.

    if museums can deliver and maintain a culture - where is the Frith museum - moreover why did such a cultural mainstay fail to get maintained, particularly in NY with its many museums.


    so that is what Jerry and the gang, and the BB Theory gang do when they have finished their take aways or their meal at the diner,,,same one as Becker?...they go to the variety of museums, and get culture ......

    i too have done Dali.
    i got it in a library book,,,,your picture was bigger granted, but i have smaller eyes.

    k

    ps...you know your selective chop of my quote throws my context entirely....knowing you to be a clever chap....could i get you to ask yourself why?
    :)
     
  8. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    this is what i'm talking about

    Neo-Nazi Craig Cobb charged after small town 'terrorised'

    Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/world/neonaz...-terrorised-20131120-2xunb.html#ixzz2lAZJRW00

    no Frith in this small human settlement near Los Angeles ....and multiculturalism failing badly.

    it is easy to blame the other culture ( the one less similar to our own ) - and this is what happens.

    now if i take Pak's heads up on new york, i would presume we could just slot this guy and his shitty culture somewhere between the villages and it will all work out fine.

    or not?

    i'm still left with the belief that Frith is the proven glue, and it is what we might need to regain, if artificial constructs like the Greedist Paradigm, which stands in for culture, take a big hit.

    regards,
    k
     
  9. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    I'm utterly lost. If it's the proven glue - how did we become unglued? And don't give me this:

    _________and guess what f*cked it all up;

    the church saw Frith as competion to its authority - and took to our cultural backbone...


    culturally weakened we bought the bullshit of the industrial revolution -


    gutted, cultureless we fell into religion and sold our time in the division of labour - willing wage slaves.
    we have been loosing ground culturally ever since -

    but didn't we hope when multiculturalism promised that we could all just hang together, so those of us without any could get splashed by those with....

    simple solutions for simple minds?
    _______________________________


    in a world of > 7 Bn....culture gives you a personal context.


    The church were just the ambulance chasers of their day, swooping in to gather up the already scattered flock to suit their own greedist end.
    And as for culture giving you a personal context ...
    Isn't culture what every "new Australian" kid (of my generation anyway) was fighting against in order to join the greedist mob so they could have the new personal context they so desperately desired?
    I dunno .. I'm just not following your logic on a lot of this .. but then again I'm tired & full of (dental) drugs the past few days.
    I have to go milk a cow. When I get back I'll start slogging through the links & references again.
     
  10. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    and i reference this;

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/11/20/black-pete-tradition-splits-dutch-society

    going down in the Netherlands - where multiculturalism is running up against a bit of Frith

    "However each year St Nicholas is accompanied by an army of helpers in blackface sporting afro wigs, an aspect of the parade known as the "Black Pete" tradition which has been condemned as racist.

    Two years ago Quincy Gario was detained by police for wearing a shirt that railed against the controversial tradition.

    "I've been receiving death threats for the past couple of months, and it's been a really harrowing experience, because you don’t actually expect this in a country like the Netherlands," Mr Gario said.

    "The last ten years we’ve had two politically motivated deaths here in the country, so I do think I need to watch my back."

    ___________________________

    if i was a black guy, this would probably give me the shits....Frith would demand i protect kith,kin and kim....i would likely flee to a more synergistic culture....like that of my people, logically living in a cultural clump somewhere.

    _________________________

    Frith does this - it causes humans to intelligently self sort....this kind of filtering is natural and benign.....

    this is nothing like self sorting at the shopping mall, which is not natural and not benign.
     
  11. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    and i reference this

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com...fice-war-victims-burials-archaeology-science/

    "Who you are choosing to kill, who you are choosing to sacrifice, says a lot about how you see other people," Toyne says. "We are seeing a long-term shift in the origins of sacrifice victims to farther and farther away."

    :)

    we divine man as he was, as he still is, violent, destructive, brutal, acquisitive, competitive - and he has created societies along these lines.

    ( my rough quote of J.Krishnamurti )

    Frith is the cause of the sacrifice victims being farther and farther away.....as the homogeneous culture expands.....it is going to clash with markedly different cultures at its boundaries.....

    unless through designed human settlements of the village scale, maintaining cultural values using Frith, and by Frithweaving between villages - the hard edge is avoided and a soft transition occur.

    i speculate....

    k
     
  12. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Can't find any frith around here. So I'm creating my own. You are ringing my bell Kimbo, thanks.

    I like this one:

    Multiculturalism is indicative of a time when a damaged ecosystem causes it to occur....
    It is not a target of a healthy mature ecosystem....
    instead
    it is tantamount to a system dropping its adrenalin pills and flooding itself with competing options.

    let us be clear that the systems response to mega stress (like a bushfire), is not a picture of sustainability.

    the reality of multiculturalism is competition and succession.....the system waits patiently for the hostilities to subside then deals with the 'winner'.....the winner has the niche, has the place...has the chance at consolidating itself as the climax species.


    I think you arre ringing a lot of bells with this one, maybe even crack a few! Stick this in your thinker and see what comes out: the melanin is regulated by climate, hence is apart of culture.
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Stress my friend. I'll PM you about it.
     
  14. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    So help me out here man ...

    I'm having difficulty digesting & assimilating all the ideas you've presented here kimbo. Help me get my head around it a bit better hey?
    So I'm looking at the article you quoted
    https://www.friggasweb.org/frith.html
    & focusing particularly on these 2 sentences:
    The idea of frith is very closely tied to kinship -- blood kinship in particular -- and then to kinship by marriage, adoption and fostering. The term frith did not merely indicate the material fact of blood relationship. Rather, it described the essence of the relationship itself: the joys, responsibilities, interdependence, burdens, and benefits that characterized it.
    & I'm thinking you're focusing on the blood kinship aspect rather than the willingness to embrace the essence of voluntary interdependence. Am I correct?
    It is not my experience that blood automatically makes for harmony, & the opposite is often true. I am still very hopeful frith can be best created within the environment of intentional community - a village based on a group of people who express, & more importantly demonstrate sincere willingness to shoulder the burdens of interdependence in order to receive the rewards.
    When we crawled out of the ooze it was simply how it was that the people around us were our blood kin, & the enormous & ceaseless efforts required for survival meant we survived best where frith was nurtured. But I am proposing frith was established & promoted from necessity rather than any natural affinity or desire for it directly related to genetic homogeny. Those without frith perished, those with it were more likely to thrive, but that was a side effect, not the cause. Rapid removal of dissimilar persons from the tribe would have reinforced the genetic/social connection of frith while simultaneously increasing the chances that the predisposition to it was increased.
    I would propose that the invention of a system in which an object came to symbolise value not contained within it - that is gold/money - gave enormous leverage to dysfunction & the dissolution & discontinuation of frith as the essential social glue. When one could own more material possessions that one could carry from place to place & could defend from removal by others, we were screwed. The entire system fell apart, or rather, it evolved into something new. While we were relatively tied to one place & one people by our common physical need to maintain sufficient safety to obtain food & shelter, we had the space to nurture our social & emotional needs for love & connection, art & culture, & were inspired by the spiritual aspect of our nature to do so. Once we had a system that allowed us to gain independence from & advantage over others we sere screwed. The gene was out of the bottle, never to return. The greedy & ambitions aspects of our nature, our ego, our desire for individuality, never looked back, until now, when the effects of unlimited consumption & self-absorption have made us a gross & repulsive parody of what we originally evolved to be. Even now it is self interest that is driving us to find a more satisfying way of living. We have discovered, to our horror, that unlimited independence is an illusion, that we are in fact, all connected - to one another, to the life cycle & to the earth itself. Money can't free us from the reality of our humanity & having reached the end of that rope we are looking for ways to soften the very big tumble we are about to take.
    Or perhaps I have misunderstood & the blood kinship aspect is not your focus? Perhaps you are saying the defining core of this system you propose is the exclusion of diversity? While I very clearly see your point (fresh in my mind - having just packed off number 2 son for the usual reason - megalomania - after another all too brief visit) it is somehow not sitting right with me that you propose this & yet still say it's PC. Isn't this the opposite of PC? Isn't this a monoculture? Aren't monocultures susceptible to massive failures? Didn't we discover that the birds & insects we thought were gobbling up our precious crops were actually a vital & necessary link in the chain of life? Didn't we discover after setting up factories geared for monotonous production of specialised items, touted as efficient, that they were anything but? Are not humans raised in villages of look-alike think-alike do-alike relatives desperately keen to see new villages with different looking thinking & acting people? And isn't the benefit of that the maintenance of genetic diversity, without which we get increasing levels of recessive genetic disorders such as cystic fibrosis & Sickle-cell disease?
    As with all things I think the answer is the middle path. Groups of people function most effectively when relatively similar. However without the poles of anything, we only have the middle, & the middle is never balance - it's just the middle.
     
  15. matto

    matto Junior Member

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  16. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Oh you 2, just bring on the orgy. I'll cook!
     
  18. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Frith - the glue of human settlement at the village scale

    Frith is the cultural glue that holds human settlement at the village scale in planned harmony.

    Viewed from a place in the clouds; nice and high up - Frith causes humans to self organise just like other natural systems.

    Picture villages, that sit close to other villages as far as the eye can see.

    At any point, upon any group of huts or houses, the Frith can be observed radiating out from our focal point. The further from our focal point, the lesser the Frith most pertinent to that point.

    It is a kinship thing.

    And it involves like clumping with like.

    When we zoom out, we see place defining of the pattern - like people, culturally homogeneous occupying their niche.

    Whilst we are zoomed out to this scale - observe how Frith in causing the self sorting of humans, along kin, kith and cultural lines provides

    a 'Cultural Gradient'.

    this is what we see nature do.

    antagonistic species do not form hard lines where one exists on one side and the other on the other....if that ever occurs you can count on a displacement somewhere causing a 'culture clash'.

    A cultural gradient is not a feature of multiculturalism.

    Multiculturalism in its contemporary interpretation of " chuck it all in together because diversity is good ", is not part of Frith. Frith does not do it this way. Frith is pretty well the opposite of this...and Frith is logically better, because it provides the cultural gradient.

    It does this through the Frithweaving of daughters and sons, establishing family bonds through marriage and other means, with different families, different ethnicities, and even different cultures,,,but Frith also intelligently mixes the mix such that synergy occurs.

    This is all very logical and observable in nature. Potentially antagonistic species are separated by several layers and depths of species that achieve a harmony each in their niche.

    We observe nature providing Cultural Gradients.

    We can reason Humanity unbound by overarching imperatives, like contemporary society would through the cultural virtues of Frith, self sort into homogeneous cultures, where the importance of family and ones people is bound to place, and where there are no hard edges and cultural clash because the whole dam thing is just the way nature does it - and it just happens to work.

    Frith provides the Cultural Gradient organically, 'naturally', given the chance;

    Without it, and through contemporary group think - we now have enclaves where hard edges do occur and the dynamics of edge at its worst can be seen. It is a fact that modern town planners in the know ( back me markos?) now have to consider hard barriers to keep antagonistic cultures within the multicultural framework apart.

    Things like freeways, parks, walled estates, rivers, forests any dam thing to keep the cultures apart.

    This dumb multiculturalism reeks of human simple mindedness.

    Cultural gradients through human villages based on the family and cultural homogeneity, glued together with Frith....and voila, peace and harmony.

    (ok the peace and harmony is lies to children)

    shit will still happen - but it will happen less through applied Permaculture design that grasps the basics of modelling our systems on nature.

    We are climax species whether we like it or not. I would suggest it is not helpful to act like less. Responsibility comes with the job. Maintaining the niche is fundamental.

    Frith, with its pattern on place, is a good blueprint for what to do, and what not to do.

    You know how you'd always thought there was something not quite right with the show but couldn't put your finger on it.....Let your finger come to rest on Frith a while.

    Ponder what was lost, nay sold, along with intangibles like culture place and peace.

    and contemplate this-

    Age = Rank = Frith

    Age = Expense = 'Us Now'

    __________________

    which one would you rather be part of?

    k
     
  19. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    I just sowed the seed, Helen made it grow.

    Frith, it is a core element of being a primate.

    thanks Helen (mate!) for introducing me to this....The Inovation of Loneliness

    [video=youtube;c6Bkr_udado]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Bkr_udado[/video]


    this vid highlights the primate implementation of Frith.
    we are primates,
    we should rationally construct our human settlements to support our hard wiring.
    Human settlement, culturally homogeneous, structured upon Frith, achieving a cultural gradient with no hard edges.

    This is the recipe for Harmony that multiculturalism denies us.
    It is simple, beautiful, accommodating, just, and the way that nature does it.

    If Humanity does not destroy itself through the experiment of multiculturalism (failed), we will evolve to set up human settlements along the lines of Frith.

    Frith, and Filial Piety is behind the strength of Asian cultures and the lack of such in our Culture is as distorted as the rest of it.

    onya,
    K
     
  20. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    So waddaya say we find the other 148 members of our mob & get on with the conversation?
    :)
     

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