Frith - you can not buy it.

Discussion in 'General chat' started by kimbo.parker, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    i have concluded a line of reason; and i seek to share the result.



    • the right scale for human settlement is the family village - about 300 persons sharing maybe 6 surnames.
    • the community, resultant from vigorous policies of exclusion is of the one homogeneous culture.
    • the next scale up is regional alliances of villages
    • the next scale up is federation of villages
    • the next scale up is nations of villages
    • nations get geographical constraints like oceans, mountains and rivers to contain and delineate their boundaries.
    • multiculturalism is redundant - harmony is more important than than some unrealistic ' progressives' ' feel good.
    • nature does not do multiculturalism - the lion does not lie down with the lamb - amid the diversity of nature like clumps with like.
    • synergistic relationships that evolve between species are based on a collective harmony - shit doesn't get included unless it is assimilated into the collective....some plants like other plants, some plants hate other plants.
    • permaculture pragmatism, and the self survival of the institution - isn't going to spell this divisive stuff out....
    • permaculture's 'there are no weeds' mantra is just a nice way of saying " everything in its place ".
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    what is the glue that binds the common ambition of any village?
    it is culture.
    but, not our culture....not our western greedist culture...not our economic rationale that stands in for culture,,,,these autonomous consumptive units can't do village.
    they have lost the skills set - swapped it for what it takes these days.
    and the two are at odds.

    the ambitions of the autonomous consumer are an entirely different package to/from what makes a good villager.
    [h=3]the glue is missing ! [/h]but what was the glue before it went missing, what 'something' could fill the mind and life ambitions of a person other than autonomous consumption.
    Frith

    it was hard to find i can tell you!


    i saw some cultures getting a better deal, maintained and valued by the young!
    i saw the common factor as the presence of 'filial piety' - this is a european term for something the asians do.

    it focuses on the family; duties and obligations


    the asians got it from confucious
    but they could have got the motherload from pre roman, pre christian europeans.

    us white guys had it sussed


    Frith spells out the cultural duties and obligations, benefits and security, of the family scale village.
    deep and wide and rich - the autonomous consumer is less than a peasant - less than a freeman - miles less than a common yeoman, impoverished like no vassal would suffer.


    _________and guess what f*cked it all up;

    the church saw Frith as competion to its authority - and took to our cultural backbone...


    culturally weakened we bought the bullshit of the industrial revolution -


    gutted, cultureless we fell into religion and sold our time in the division of labour - willing wage slaves.
    we have been loosing ground culturally ever since -

    but didn't we hope when multiculturalism promised that we could all just hang together, so those of us without any could get splashed by those with....

    simple solutions for simple minds?
    _______________________________


    in a world of > 7 Bn....culture gives you a personal context.

    you are here today because of successful ancestors going back to day dot.

    their success was routed in their culture.


    the contemporary cultural void - maintains our subservience to the Greedist paradigm.
    if you want out - get culture.

    if you want culture - get Frith.

    and if you have Frith - you have no space for multiculturalism.


    multiculturalism is not biodiversity - the diversity exists - the question that is no question - is what can possibly be gained by not copying nature - just tossing in all the ingredients in some supremely stupid human attempt at a recipe.


    multiculturalism is like putting your bowel flora in your mouth and thinking it looks good.


    right, i'll just piss off now.


    helen - loose the tag on the sig please dear - i feel oppressed by it....you know how easily i get oppressed

    pak - cheers on samain
    bill - wink

    graham - WTF!! get back here - protest applauded! -

    regards,
    K
     
  2. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    it gets down to your habitus doesn't it,?

    The habitus can be seen as counterpoint to the notions of rationality that are prevalent within other disciplines of social science research, as it relativizes the notion of an actors 'best interest' through attention to the cultural definition of 'best'

    soooo,

    if we were to shift our motivating factors, such that we chose to let culture define 'best',,,should we not make sure the culture we chose to vouch safe our broadest individual aspirations with,

    is compatible to us? and

    is capable of delivering the desired outcome?

    if you were giving up the previous reasons for life - you'd need to know the new ones were just so...
    wouldn't you?

    and this 'just so' culture - it would be the one you have remnants of, the one that you consider applicable to your people...wouldn't it?

    :)
     
  3. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    Hello.
    I wanna put one hundred big laughing smiles & a party thingie in here, but I'll content my self with just hello. And it's damn good to see you.
    :)
     
  4. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    helen - loose the tag on the sig please dear

    Dear? DEAR? Geez - I feel oppressed by that! What happened to "you sexy thing"? :)
    Is it because I am now officially middle aged?
    Bloody Hell.
    However - given I am so hysterically delighted to see you - done!
    :)
     
  5. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Kimbo's opening dot points (sans the last two) remind me of the polycentrism you get when you cross Alexander et al's Pattern Language with Bookchin's Libertarian Municipalism.

    As always, nice to 'see' you, K.
     
  6. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Kimbo, by your reasoning regarding multiculturalism, does that also mean you can't have Individualism? Meaning the herd has the right of way?

    Multiculturalism seems like individualism on a herd-ish scale.

    Has the rise of individualism dissolved the frith or did the frith dissolve first and cause the rise of individualism.

    Perhaps multiculturalism is really just what happens in the early stages of a disturbed system. Eventually the multi thing will turn into the new culture. Until the next disturbance. The problem is not so much with the herd, but the vast size of the herd - it is no longer cosy little family herds, but a huge super-herd. Or at least it is a bunch of sub-herds squashed in together into a tight paddock and expected to get along. But, like you say they won't get along until they homogenise. But for that you need a big characterless paddock, because these little family herds are no longer filling (and can no longer fill) a niche. We are in a feed lot (consumerism).

    I'm not even sure there is much real diversity of culture left. Remnants perhaps, like small pockets of rainforest.

    I think frith is what comes with living in your niche (as a small herd), culture and frith go hand-in-hand with Place. In my imagination the Aboriginals had a good healthy dose of it. The American Indians too, but once the new blokes moved in and shoved them altogether on some land that wasn't their land things started to crumble. The frith started dissolving quickly.

    Now we have super-herds gathering together in cities! Cities of all things - some of the most frithless places on Earth if you ask me.

    Which brings me to permaculture and I think the valid objections to herb spirals and mandala garden beds as defaults. It must be a design response to the local situation, to the niche. Otherwise it doesn't foster frith. I think the lack of frith is one of the dangers that permaculture faces, or has faced in its effectiveness and uptake.

    Don't get me started on Church.

    Anyway, i've drifted off into disinterest so I'll leave it there. I'm not sure, but it looks like I have pretty much agreed with you Kimbo.

    Frith be with you.
     
  7. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Somehow the world seems to be in balance today. I wonder why? Welcome back Kimbo and Grahame.
     
  8. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    hello uncle :)

    i agree with you! i tried to trim down my quote of you, and couldn't.....dam you're smart....

    i want to make a strong point - we don't have the language to speak this - the language we have has not the words and linked concepts - we are dealing with the legendary
    "woc' i feel,,,(withoutcontext)....so we have to fudge it, and maybe make up some new words.

    ______________________________

    i find that Grahams take on frith, individuality. scale, cultural impoverishment, and temporal effect adds to my base understanding hugely.
    _____________________________

    in fact; Graham's take on my research pushes me to epiphany! ( god its been fkn ages since i had one ) ....

    Multiculturalism is indicative of a time when a damaged ecosystem causes it to occur....
    It is not a target of a healthy mature ecosystem....
    instead
    it is tantamount to a system dropping its adrenalin pills and flooding itself with competing options.

    let us be clear that the systems response to mega stress (like a bushfire), is not a picture of sustainability.

    the reality of multiculturalism is competition and succession.....the system waits patiently for the hostilities to subside then deals with the 'winner'.....the winner has the niche, has the place...has the chance at consolidating itself as the climax species.
    ______________________________

    but no one presents multiculturalism in this vein - probably not conducive to social harmony when the bottom line is ' us or them'.

    what shits me with "progressives" is that they seem too stupid for the job.
    all talking up things like multiculturalism as some altruistic target that us apes should aspire to',,,,never once saying, 'the contract is up for reconsideration - reapply for your job'
    no "progressive" spells out that multiculturalism is just the way that nature does resets.
    _____________________________

    on the question of individualism and frith....language fails us.....but,
    somehow frith is complimentary to individualism and not a detraction....i suspect frith is an addition to individualism the way a motor is an addition to a car.

    the car sans motor is still a car, it might be red, green, blue, ( so much choice of individuality here????) but it is a small take on what a car could be.
    individuality given the context of frith, is more.

    assuming no individual on earth arrived by any means other than evolutionary success of local ancestors, there is a compelling case for not isolating the one from the others.
    this is a core value of the Frith paradigm.
    when we let go of the totally reasonable and rational practise of ancestor worship - ( we did this in little Frithyards, in every village ), we created the void.

    [ actually the church of christians took out our Frithyards, as step one in their take over]

    the thing is - Frith ensured rank, power, and security......it stood in protection of every 'individual' - because every individual has ancestors - ancestors were close even when deceased, they gave a lifetimes company along the journey.....and living ancestors were very important .....so important to an individual, that the line between the two blurs...

    frith; is it redundant or was it slain


    G refs the scale of the Herd and identifies Cities as frithless places.....( caveat; not to the asians and other cultures - just us dumb white Greedists )
    our mob, in their cultural voids are indeed sans frith, doing individuality in a red car and wondering why it doesn't feel as good as they thought red would be.

    tossers:)

    and because this societal hodge podge off lost and broken is just screwing everything everywhere with dumb ape shit - we get multiculturalism.
    oh lucky us, how 'enriching' - lets get lots -

    then we can compete and clash and make war and suffer heaps of boiling hostilities, just prior to some ethnic cleansing, but more accurately cultural cleansing.....
    where upon some group of homogeneous culture, probably reduced to an appropriate scale claims the environment ( the place ) and attains climax species status.

    where upon - PEACE.

    all flows doesn't it?

    .
     
  9. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    This is flicking my manic switch,

    because

    there arises the need to differentiate between the system (nature) and us (components)....and this is just so UNPERMACULTURE....aint it?

    what the system wants is not what we want - the system wants the winner - it acts with indifference to create its winner.

    ______________________

    in Permaculture we manage systems to keep them from climax ( consider SOP's bamboo ).....we do this to maximise the 'productivity' of a system because we believe that diversity is the yardstick, and the more diverse the system the more 'productive, resilient, and desirable it is..

    and this looks like it is totally wrong! or at least totally twisted in context!

    we operate under the belief of rational self interest - but we missed the bit where ' we ' are not the system,,,,and the systems indifference to us as mere components is in fact

    not the deal we want.
    ____________________

    what we want is more like a marriage - we want something like monogamy with nature.
    we don't want nature to be indifferent to us,,we want it to embrace us as its winners......and in that place.....we will love and care for it, as it loves and cares for us.

    ha! and ha!

    lies to children!

    __________________

    so i'll just do a quick rewrite of the Permaculture ambition and fix this .....

    Permaculture is the art of finding the right nature, wooing it, getting it in service to our cause, and keeping it strong in service to our cause......
    further more, we are quite specific about our cause...our culture. , our people, and our rational self interest.

    you know what i think of nature that subjects me and mine to grief -
    i think of it as something i will fix.....me the designer, trained to do this....

    if i can not tweak the design accordingly - then that shit goes. ( like GL )

    ______________________________________

    and that dumb take i had on the altruistic goodness of permaculture - that gets bashed and leaves.
    clear and back on track,
    i seek to apply this more mature understanding to other confronting issues - like West Sydney.

    _____________________________________

    permaculture; a warm blanket for the peoples of the world.....it puts us in touch with our governing system....and shows us that we can through clever design - do some proactive shit to keep the joint how 'we' like it,,,and it steers us through the ravings of progressives who would doom us all with dumb ape shit.

    meat-heads who look at the result of an ecological disaster and think....ooo isn't that nice, so many flowers, we could be like that.

    ha!
    _______________________________

    climax species maintain their environments, actively excluding ; they talk, they conspire, they lace the ground with chemicals toxic and repellent to other non homogeneous species. They will even bring about the destruction of themselves (if required) 'knowing' they will come off generally better than the competition...

    think of eucalypts and the lignotuber fall back response to the fires they use to effect this,,,, or acacias and the massive seed germination response to fire that the bastards seem intent on securing.....

    i see this as species looking after its own....this is not multiculturalism....eucs for eucs, acacias for acacias is not accurate either....
    it is particular species in every case...
    particular species prepared to 'press the button' with no greater ambition than the best for their own.

    this is glaringly obvious in nature.
    so, we copy this right?, because Permaculture models its systems on nature ??


    NO!, we model our position in nature on climax species and the way they do it because the bottom line is we want to live, we want to be climax species ourselves.

    right :clap:
    ______________________________

    come in spinner
     
  10. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Hallo Kimbo!
    I like this frith. Found this bit:
    This seems to imply "obligation to one's community, ..." no matter the makeup.

    While you make a case of multiculturalism being akin to the rash of pioneer species within a disturbed area, one could also make the case of multiculturalism being the hugely diverse species population along the ocean's edge.

    If each member of a hypothetical community (whether deep in ancestors or more recent and broadly inclusive of many cultures) practiced "loyalty, honor, and hospitality" and considered "their welfare in their actions", I would propose that this hypothetical community would develop frith due to the practice of mutual respect.

    Anyhow, just a couple of thoughts. Thanks for sharing your line-of-reason!
     
  11. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Frith is kinship, at the distance of strangers, Frith is nil.

    9andalf says "This seems to imply "obligation to one's community, ..." no matter the makeup."

    bullshit 9ndalf, you are sprinkling oil upon the water, seeking to calm the chop master.

    selective editing my man. You could not have taken more than a couple of steps down the Frith enquiry without coming up against the absolute core value of kinship.

    this is not some 'sons and daughters of eve warm wrap around' - ancestor worship taken to the ultimate results in the common ancestor - a pre cultural epoch!

    this is language not in service to the analysis, language unable to differentiate the scale, language hostile to the outcome, and i concede all we bloody have.

    but you stretch the deal too far when you compare the family village, with the oceans edge.

    it is this kind of 'games with language' that obscures our chances of using language to divine truth ---
    ie ' the nature of truth is dynamic,,, if not it is destined to be redundant where change is the only certainty,,, there is no one truth, there are truths and it is all relevant"

    this is what you are doing with this 9.5, mate, i feel.

    my culture doesn't like living on an edge.....edges are unwon zones where competing elements fail to achieve dominance over a niche... life is less comfy and,
    most critically at the level of species - life is less productive.


    at the level of indifferent nature - life is more productive - because 'life' is the yardstick

    at our level, it is our lives, and the lives of our own, and the lives of those compatible with our own, synergistic and not threatening to our own,that matter....

    someone once said that Permaculture was also about permanence of culture.

    culture is not one thing
    Permaculture can be used for cultural permanence when it is used correctly.....empowering one culture to keep its niche.
    and others to gain their niche..........


    but not my peoples niche....Frith is rooted in kinship. The closer the kinship, the more powerful the Frith.
    at the distance of unrelated strangers, practising hostile cultures,,,at the prospect of risk to the kin - Frith is ' something you would logically swap individuality for ' , else succumb to the natural order, possibly loosing the very niche that sustains your people in the cycle of life.

    f8ck that,,,,Frith is what makes it ok to say, this is ours.

    i ponder that impoverished individuals bereft of frith and subconsciously aware of their precarious position, trying to get along as "less that 7 billionths of something" - are the ones who come up with the 'progressive's' position,,,,

    gays and feminists that think islam deserves a chance at 'our' village....
    permaculturalists that can't cope with the ethics of being a climax species.
    poor frithless bastards.

    Frith, by ancestors is the successful acts that ensured our survival and got us thus far - acts of permanent culture.
    the abandonment of frith, is loosing us the game, it is what gives credence to the irresponsibility of the individual actor,,,whose new take on rational self interest does not provide a healthy intersect with community.

    people like me emerge - rogue -
    dispossessed and alienated, bereft of Frith, we are no fucken good to anyone lest the cultural remnant that made us reclaims frith as the cornerstone of our existence.

    frith means peace and harmony....it is a nown, a verb, an adjective and an adverb.
    it is the new F word.

    :)
     
  12. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Daily Horoscope for Everyone

    Tuesday, Nov 19, 2013 -- A growing sense of optimism continues to be the major theme today as the flighty Gemini Moon helps us sever attachments to unproductive negative emotions. We're still dealing with intense feelings, yet the weight of our worries seems to be lighter now as active Mars forms a supportive sextile with confident Jupiter, enabling us to channel energies that were previously blocked. Changing our attitudes can transform challenges into accomplishments.

    (we are glove puppets)
    or at least, i know i am.

    *chuckle*

    here is a good dose of Frith - by Frithweavers no less - guilds of them.

    https://www.friggasweb.org/frith.html
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    K,

    Nature does though. The anemone-fish and the anemone. The Anemone & the Anemone crab. Pilot fish & sharks... ..there are more.

    Synergistic relationships do occur without harmony, sometimes an outside force causes kinship between species or between humans.

    ((joke time))

    Well, considering the original meaning of this word is protection from molestation... ..of course the church would be upset! That means hands off merchandise!


    The problem isn't our communities, it is the corruption brought into our communities, and the same corruption that goes upwards towards nationalistic tendencies.

    For example, if the NSA really did give a shit about this forum post, then they really should be preparing a docket to the JAG or other office for taking over Monsanto on crimes against the world, and US, but we have laws made by greedy corporations... which are now larger then nations & IMO, that's the issue.
     
  15. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    thanks pro,

    when some science is required to back the narrative, you deliver!
    i would command a daughter to marry you just to secure your Frith.

    i would connive and scheme just to have you in our village - this is how it works, Frith and kinship.

    and can this example shine a light on the power of Frith, to blur the lines which define individuality?...this autonomous actor, using energy and resource to secure Frith, by seeking kinship...
    not exploitation, kinship that Frith ensures is mutually advantageous.

    cue 9.5 seizing on the broadest possible terms of kinship - doing that stuff with language again to shine a light on the brotherhood of man.

    i read the articles you linked......and i come away with;

    the lengths required to retro fit cities and high density living to accommodate multiple sub cultures that need to be separated by physical barriers to stop the natural from happening!


    this is as much to say that the way things are does not work, and multiculturalism within that framework does not work either.

    i would find science more of service if scientists did not pussy foot around - and just say; unworkable, start again....
    when clearly there is the bigger question of how these antagonistic cultures just happen to all be living together indifferent to rhyme and reason lest that be MONEY.

    in which case i propose that the multiplicity of sub cultures is itself an illusion - they aren't sub cultures at all - they are the Greedists.

    consider Singapore - lots of ethnic groups - even a diversity in religion - but the culture is Singaporean.
    Singapore is not multicultural as i see it - it is homogeneous - Singaporean.

    religion itself does not have to define a culture....sadly, it can.
    but where it does not - ethnicities can come together, find commonality and sally forth - as long as the commonality is maintained- it seems workable.

    keeping it maintained, in permanence would require Frith.
    the young are taught the values which makes the deal work, and they do what they are told because Frith ensures it.

    i must rest the host,,,biocentricity ( is that the word ),,,is doing the suckers head in.
     
  16. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Heh, it seems the oil missed the water and hit the fire.

    I thought your resurrection of the concept of firth was very fitting and I merely took the concept (from the 1700's and earlier, world population ~ 600,000,000) and applied it to the world in which I find myself (population ~7,000,000,000), then tried to project how that concept would/could adapt going forward.

    The idea of applying firth to isolated and closed enclaves of "kin" does not compute for what I've seen of the world, but adapting the concept to niche communities within a "multicultural whole" might work out. Bottom line, while historical firth was based on lineage, longevity in place, and extended family, it basically comes down to respect for those around us and an ethical compulsion to consider the greater good in personal relationships.

    Remember, humans are not made up of multiple species ... we are all of the same species. We may appear to be the climax species right now, but that is most likely ego, and if we don't collectively change our approach to living with our planet, we may find ourselves a "has-been" species.

    Mark's links describe something similar to what I was imagining (thanks Mark).
     
  17. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    pak - the anemome and the anemone fish..Fish Frith?

    gotta love ya!

    mate, they are practising synergistic culture to the point that it is simpler to call it the "anemone / anemone fish culture"

    we observe two separate species.....
    let us introduce more anemone fish to the model and reduce the amount of anemones.

    next thing is anemone fish wars, no doubt among differing family groups of them. Fish Frith.

    you will not find anything in nature to defy Frith because
    Frith is natural...it is the most natural....we save ourselves and our own first.


    Sans Frith is the contemporary condition....

    the lion still does not lie down with the lamb - lest it be to eat it.

    if any one out there, not a mod or a statesman or a professor, would like to chuck their shit into this - you'd be most welcome.
    particularly anyone on my side of the frith debate.

    :)
    k
     
  18. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Exactly.

    Before you started this thread Kimbo, I didn't know Frith was it's name, but I am certain that I knew of Frith. Sometimes a word comes along and it gives a big warm hug to a concept I have been throwing around inside my mind. Frith scoops up some things I have been contemplating and gives it a perfect home. Frith loves this stuff I have been mulling over, it is like that big giant I sometimes wish for who comes along when I am tired or just needing a little extra love and it picks me up like a mum or dad for grown-ups and carries me off to bed, or carries me in from the car when I've drifted off to sleep on a long drive home...

    I miss Frith, it has always been a longing within me, for as long as I can remember (I'm sure my ancestors are constantly whispering about it in my ear). It is my missing giant. It's why I meditate. It's why I have been attracted to Permaculture and anything that isn't the current dominant system - the alternative.. What concerns me is that I may never really know Frith again. It may be critically endangered in the human eco-system now, if not extinct.

    I don't really know where we stand with frith. I accept all of your previous exceptions and corrections on my earlier thoughts Kimbo. I speak mostly from the Australian perspective and expand it out to my little bit of Overseas travel experiences. As Paul Kelly aptly sang in his song Every fucken city looks the same. Most of the paddocks I traipsed thorough seemed to look the same or were becoming the same or aspired to be the same.

    Woops, lost my train of thought. Oh well. I look forward to the thoughts of others.
     
  19. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    graham,

    i imagine you are glowing.

    did i do you good?
    i hope so man, it would go some way to repaying you for years of choice company.

    if i can get get a couple more similar debts cleared then my work here would be done.
    (this host is buggered, but always easy to start, so i keep it).
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    You're welcome, Sir.

    I'm afraid I'd have to pass on the most kind and generous offer of your daughter's hand in marriage, however. It's one particular anachronism that I have little time for. Besides, I'm very much of the polyamorous kind.

    I guess the above rules out the equally kind and generous offer of kinship? However, if one cannot be kin then maybe kith will suffice, and one's place in the village might still be secured?

    ...

    I can see it happening a number of ways, according to a number of scenarios. But rather than bore you with my own renditions, Holmgren's happen to be pretty well much in alignment with my own.

    I think the Frith will feel right at home in the polycentric world of the Earth Stewards.

    Regards, M.
     

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