WARNING: Not a thread for the staunchly scientific... Putting aside the debate about how 'woo-woo' is holding permaculture back from mainstream adoption I'd like to discuss a few things metaphysical or perhaps spiritual. I'm midway through a new book by Alanna Moore called Sensitive Permaculture: Cultivating the way of the sacred Earth. and it is challenging me. Now Alanna is a pretty well respected Permie as fa as I can gather so... I'm one of these folks who have pretty much been raised as an non-god fearing scientist. Where I came from fairies really were a myth, even fodder for derision. But, I'm not so sure. I'm certainly convinced that the basic premise behind their existence and care is a good enough reason to entertain their 'sort-of' existence - a kind of scientific/psychological acceptance that believing in them could do us all a lot of good. I have some difficulty believing in them as anything more than manifestations of a certain kind of spiritual psychology. I really want to believe in them, but have difficulty with that final commitment. I suspect this is exactly the physiology that dis-allows me from seeing them or 'seeing' them. That is something I'm interested in discussing, and anyone else's similar experiences. Further to that though i am particularly interested in the concept of creating/adopting/nurturing sacred places both near and within my own gardens. Anyone care to enter into a frank discussion about these things (please without reducing it to an argument about woo-woo in permaculture.) Happy to let the topic expand and develop. For example, the sort of spiritual/esoteric thoughts and beliefs that actually make it into actions and practices on the ground. In the meantime I'm off to see if i can chat with some of the fairies I'm sure are lurking around our place.
OK I'll jump in. Wayne Dwyer once said, "You'll see it when you believe it" instead of the other way around. I see the whole of nature as pretty sacred and so living where I do with native wildlife and flora I am a constant state of awe and gratefulness (sometimes it is hard when the bush turkeys and possums wreck my gardens). Now I have seen many things that defy logic and rationality. I too come from a analytic and logical thinking background so when i saw, on many occasions, things I had no former reference to, I thought I was going mad. Read many books etc to try and find explanations. In the end i just had to accept the strange things I have witnessed, as some sort of blessing and leave it at that. As Shakespeare said, "There are more things on heaven and earth Horatio than you have ever dreamt of".
I "see" nature spirits rather than seeing them. I was moving a pump in the stream some years ago (before Purple Pear) and had a sense than I was not alone. I was reflecting on what nature would think of my using the creek for my irrigation when a water spirit pushed me (I think) and I landed in the middle of the stream. I could "hear" the cheeky bugger laughing at me and there was nothing I could do but laugh too. It is important to acknowledge their existence and to seek their guidance and they can bring insights that are helpful. I understand that it is not easy for some. For me it is a pure relationship with nature and needs to be experienced but not necessarily understood or rationalized. I would never think less of a person if they did not agree because that is where they are at this moment.
I can't agree with your particular example of faeries, honestly I just think they are wishful thinking. However, there are several important ideas that have been brought up. Wishful thinking, to me, doesn't deserve to be a slur - having a wish, a dream, that sustains and pleases is never a bad thing - only when that surreality starts to dramatically and objectively damage a person (which is difficult to pin down) is it an issue. I mean, really, if believing in faeries makes someone happy, what's wrong with that? Is it any crazier than believing in a Jewish zombie who wants people to symbolically eat his flesh once a week to be purged of crimes they never committed? Or people who staunchly believe in science unquestionably? To come back to faeries, I consider, perhaps, that part of a person's own psychology and love and enjoyment of nature sometimes needs to manifest itself externally - and that's not a criticism, just a guess. Some people view their relationship with nature/whatever someone has faith in in such a way I think they need nature to be almost a sentient equal. Isn't all belief, or faith, to a degree, in some, small way, ridiculous? Additionally, while I don't think about fantastical magic, per se, I do think it's incredibly important for there to be things beyond science, and beyond concrete knowledge. There's an intrinsic beauty and enchantment in the unknowable and the mystic, and while that's not for everyone, I'd hate to see people's own mysticism and inner thoughts demolished by a differing ideology (whatever that is). So, do I believe in faeries? No, not at all. Do I believe in what belief in faeries represents (a willingness to look for mystery and engage in fantasy even though it's acknowledged as a little silly?) yes, absolutely. Am I a touch too romantic in thinking there are things science/religion/etc/etc/permaculture can't and won't touch? Definitely.
I never wished to see anything out of the ordinary or have any faith in other realms etc. Having a particular irish heritage and being told about the little people in my youth to me was just superstition etc. However, when something comes out of the blue and confronts you, you do start to think that maybe there is something to nature spirits, faries and the like. Quantum physics explains the possible existence of other realms or universes that may exist in parallel to ours. I think it is an individual thing and up to the experiences and or yes sometimes belief system of each person. I haven't labelled what i have seen, could have plausible explanations but nothing I could find in "normal" circles explains what I have seen or witnessed.
When I lived in VT, I saw my 1st ghost. When I went on vision quest with a shaman year later, I saw there was more to this world. Then I learned about Schauberger and his forestry notes from his family (he & several generations of his family were Wardens of ancient growth forests, now destroyed) & I learned about 'ether' and other things. Then I learned about Findhorn, and I found that as they got notes from the Unseen places in the universe about how to do things, scientists in American did experiments unknown to Findhorn that corroborated Findhorns story scientifically. Now I am learning about Water and flow forms and how important rhythm, and oscillations are. Then, on top of all this, we have things like Ghost Hunters International taking side by side to the millisecond film of full spectrum and normal films, and they are finding all sorts of things moving that we don't normally see. And finally, most recently, I learned that scientists have only recently learned we have more then 1 way our eyes see. We do not even understand how our eyes work, so why wouldn't it be possible? Some humans maybe able to see in ways others can't... i.e. sensitive one way or another. Such as recently blind people reacting to horrific sites with their face without seeing that actual problem. I cannot explain everything I have seen in my life scientifically, and honestly, I no longer want to.
I will relate to you one of the most beautiful unexplained things I have ever seen. I was visiting a friend in Texas just outside Austin in july 2003. It was very hot and my friend had ducted airconditioning and so we were inside with the windows closed. I had been there for about 4 days and after lunch I decided to send some emails to people back home in Queensland. I sat down to the computer and in this room there was a window about 4 feet to my right. Outside I could see trees and grass etc in her yard. I had just sat down and I saw a hummingbird at the window. It was just there hovering, looking at me through the window. As I had never seen one in real life before i just watched it and enjoyed it. I wondered what it was doing as there were no flowers or bugs or anything on the window and it just seemed to be checking me out. It was there for about a minute or so and i just watched it. It went and I was just about to start typing emails when I looked back and saw the most incredible thing I have ever seen. There was a perfectly shaped sphere, about 8 or 9 inches in diameter. It was multi-coloured and it seemed to be lit internally as it shined all the bright colours. the colours swirled around (like when you see petrol in water, all the colours swirl around). It was sooo beautiful. It was outside the window and I sat there gobsmacked. After a little while it moved through the closed window and moved towards me. I was speechless watching this thing move towards me. It got between me and the computer and just stayed there, mid air. I could see the colours up close and to this day cannot describe those colours. Every colour you could imagine and then more. It sat in front of me for a while, glowing. Then after a while it moved on and went straight through the wall to the next room. After I gathered myself I called my friend and we looked for it in the next room but it was gone. I was not jet lagged, not drunk, had never taken drugs and am quite sane (I think! lol). Nature spirit, fairy? have no idea........But it was the most amazing experience.
Great thread Grahame. Matt - you've done a good job of summing up where I am with this. When there are owls in my tree I choose to interpret that as the universe bringing me something to learn about wisdom. At the moment I see frogs everywhere and choose to interpret them as a spirit guide during a period of transition in my life. Am I deliberately noticing frogs in a way that I don't usually? Probably. Does it help me get through my day with a sense of peace and belonging? Absolutely! When challenged with the facts would I actually stand up and say that I believe that the frogs were sent to teach me something? No. But that doesn't stop me saying good morning to the one that sits next to me when I have breakfast on the deck! In my professional life I have certainly had many unexplainable moments. Like being somewhere and suddenly being aware that I would be needed. Then the phone would ring and I'd be needed somewhere. So when PP says a water spirit pushed him in the water, I'm happy to accept that as a form of reality even though I can't "prove" it.
..and really, to ask a broader question: is anything unreal?? I mean, if someone believes in something, their belief has a measurable existence in the brain, their well being a demonstrable change on them. If someone sees something that's "fake", well, there's loads of ways that can be rationally explained, so are those sights 'unreal'?? I've been tired and seen a courtyard collapse in on itself. The event didn't happen, but the vision did. I just think it's odd how some beliefs that help others are in and other beliefs are out. To me, each is equally strange, and equally acceptable (to an extent!).
I have always wanted to see the faery but never have. I do believe that something acts on plants, insects and animals. Deva are supposed to be the caretakers of their area of influence. This is the only way it is explainable to me that(for an example), a plant with no eyes can create a flower in the shape of the insect that actually pollinates it, in order to attract that insect to itself. There are alot of things we simply take for granted and say oh thats fasinating without stopping to think about it and realise that something about that just doesnt really make sense. How in hell does a flower know what that insect looks like and how did it duplicate that insect.(cant remember what plant does this any more unfortunately, but this is one thing that made me realise that things should never Just be assumed or accepted without really looking. Someone once told me that reality could be defined as 'that which is agreed upon'. I wish I had more time to study Quantum physics and meta physics. I see no reason why there are not those of us who choose to live within the plant kingdom instead of inhabiting a human form, personally I like to be able to move around and the idea of being stuck in one area for too long drives me nuts. My family and alot of my friends have been brought up with the belief that we are spiritual beings who happen to have human bodies. The beliefs as to our purpose here differ widely but there is an acceptance that each persons spiritual path is unique to themselves. Funnily enough, my eldest son has been researching our family geneology and found both scientist and churchmen going right back to the 11th century, so maybe its in the genes. My mother noticed at some point that our animals acted strangely when something was up with 'their' human, for example I got a bad fright oneday driving to work when I didnt see someone drive along side of me and went to turn into the turning lane they were already in and had to swerve sharply to get out of their way. A petrol can in the back of my truck tipped over and spilt gas everywhere at the same time that the passenger of the car flicked his cigerette out his window(funny how you see all thee things in a split second)I thought I was going to catch fire. When I got home my mother asked me what happened on the way to work because all of a sudden not long after I had left my dog started frantically running around the house howling. Perhaps somebody else might have thought that there was going to be/was an earthquake as this is supposed to be the sort of thing dogs do in that situation too. Its this sort of thing that reinforces for us that all things are interconnected in some way that we dont fully understand and dont always notice. I put it down to 'the ether connects all'. I realise that all this makes me come across as an absolute flake but if you expect and airy fairy type person you are seriously mistaken. Ah sorta drifted off the subject somewhat. I think part of the problem with not being able to see faeries etc, is that we are still subject to social conditioning that tells us that this just is not the sort of thing that is acceptable along with the fact that we as a civilization are so disconnected from the natural world we wouldnt see it if it stood right in front of us. Also, if we are honest, if We were the faery, would we even want to draw the attention of such a distructive, aggressive, kill it first and eat before questioning, sort of species?
Nice replies folks. Good to hear some like-minded folks. A lot of what you guys are alluding to matches my belief in Synchronicity. I'm not sure how many of the dairy farmers around here have a little chat with the fairies as they go to work in the morning When it all boils down to it, it is about respect. Self-respect, respect for the land, respect for all the little critters, respect for a diversity of views. I can't see them, but I know they are there, especially if I choose to believe in them.
One of my favourite psychological terms is cognitive dissonance. It is the internal discomfort created by trying to hold two opposing ideas in your head at the same time. Like 1. I am a really good permie who has a small carbon foot print and 2. I'm going to get on a plane and go and visit my friend Grahame this weekend. Something has to shift or you do your head in. (Sorry Grahame - I can't do it!) Interesting however that most of us seem to be able to hold 1. I don't belief in woo woo and 2. I sometimes see water nymphs in my pond - without it making us feel weird. Well not VERY weird anyway!
I modified I do believe in faeries from peter pan. The scene unfolds with tinkerbell succumbing to disbelief then everyone starts to repeatedly chant I do believe in faeries I do I do and she come back to life. In reality I find it necessary to not disbelieve in woo woo.I consider it is what I disbelieve that forms my reality as much as that which I do believe.
Fairies, Devas and other spirits You can believe or not or keep an open mind. either way the faires, devas and other spirits will continue to exist. I live in hope of a really solid meeting...not just a feeling or fleeting glance out the corner of my eye when I spend quiet time outdoors :hi:
I second what most people are saying here- depends on the day. Sometimes I'm more open that others, but I'm never disbelieving. I'm starting to feel a new connection to the earth now that I garden regularly. A different respect for time if you will. On natural spirits, I feel that if they exist or don't is of no consequence. I feel a connection to my garden, the plants, and the ecosystem. I talk to the plants, not every day, but when a new stage of growth happens I tend to congratulate the work we've accomplished together. Yeah, I hug trees. But I won't allow it to become a "problem" (that is, interfering with my life in a negative way) because the spirits (if you will) are a tool. I don't see the spirit, I see the reason that spirit is there. I've done some thinking about how I would define spirit in the last year or so. I now believe that a spirit can be many things, but particularly it is the word (if you will) manifesting itself in thought. Spirits, therefore, are immortal until those who believe in them either convert cold turkey or are killed. The first rarely happens, see the incorporation of pagan elements into the Catholic tradition through sainthood and even Christmas. Once the thought dies, it can be resurrected again because free beings are being born that have language (the developed use of the word) capacity. So in the case of spirits- a particular earth spirit in your garden (according to my view, as it stands today) can simply be your subconscious bubbling through with a thought on the subject. If other mammals can identify hundreds of plant species and know what to use them for, why should we not also, as if from instinct, identify a plant and assess its needs? Or, even better given our intellectual capability, be able to observe our environment and assess its health (as it relates to our needs)? I for one believe that we humans are much more capable beings than our modern Western culture allows us to let on. A spirit may exist out there and our bodies may have ways to observing and connecting to the brain that we are only beginning to understand: -Scientific American. I consider myself to be a fairly rational person: I won't believe in something if it is demonstrably false or a failure. But I try to see things for what they accomplish. If believing or just listening to the earth and observing- with whatever senses you wish- leads you to being successful in taking care of the planet, you have my respect. If you got there by listening to spirits, all the same to me. As long as you don't force your beliefs on me or take physically dangerous actions, you can believe what you want. Free will and all that. Now to go sit under a tree and observe. Cheers!
Nice one Finchj, I sometimes wonder what it is that makes a person a 'green thumb' and why non-green thumbs are so in awe of them, or why people have no gardening 'ability' at all. My thoughts are that it has to do with spirit and spirits in some way wether conscious or not. I think people who exhibit a green thumb are just connecting with the plant and the soil on a different level. Those who struggle with gardening are caught in a human consciousness that is wrestling with itself and thus the garden plant. They fear killing the plants, they over pamper them, they disconnect with them. It is a one-sided affair. Whereas the green thumb loves them and nurtures them and asks them what it is they need. It is a relationship. When we foster these relationships I think we start to get a feel for the whole of the garden, we start to understand the other relationships that are going on. And when a whole bunch of plants are relating to each other, it's a community and suddenly there is a beautiful garden before us. I think that is when it is easy to imagine (or perhaps see) spirits and fairies flitting through the place. and when we do things to disturb those relationships, it's easy to see that the 'fairies' could get upset. I've been thinking about sacred places also, and how we can create them by giving intention to them. The whole garden can become a sacred place when we are paying that sort of loving attention and intention to the relationships in there.
Thank you, Grahame. I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of what it takes to have a green thumb. Folks who are devoid of spirit will not understand how terrorizing the rest of the living world fails to produce good fruit. I also agree that a garden can be a sacred place, I actually believe that it should be a sacred place. Coming from the Abrahamic tradition, a garden is the sacred place since it was the original habitat of man. I don't take Genesis literally, but it does make sense as we humans can radically alter the physical world for better or worse. Better would be a garden in which we respect the system and guide it to sustainably meet our demands. Worse, well, I think we keep upping the ante when it comes to creating environmental catastrophes. By extension, of course, the entire world should be sacred to our species. There are a few things science has "forecast" for us: first, the planet will eventually become uninhabitable as the sun matures. While that is billions of years in the future, we also know that if we destroy the ecosystems we evolved from we will not live to see the day when humanity can leave earth. (Note I said humanity and not just a select few elites who get a ticket to space.) One of the amazing things about permaculture, in that by being a democratic idea (in that it can empower individuals of all social strata), we have the opportunity to create sacred or spiritual spaces, as you say. Those spaces are desperately needed as oases in a sea of overconsumption. Anyone who chances to see a permaculture site can tell instantly that "Things are done differently here." Permaculture is so appealing because it offers the thought- or the spirit- that one needs to reassess the human-centric social hierarchy that we impose on the ecosystems we inhabit. Permaculture doesn't show us that we are powerless; instead it reveals the ways in which we make ourselves weaker so we can become a positive member of a community of species. I think these revelations always manifest themselves through spirit. Anyway, I'm digressing from spirits and devas I'd love to hear more stories of people encountering the unexplainable in their travels!
