Endosulfan

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Moe, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. RichardM

    RichardM Junior Member

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    I dive down here too, have been doing for about 30 years, in the UK originally but in Tasmania (Tasman Peninsula mainly these days) for the last 15. You should join an independent club like I'm in, we don't make people sign anything and it's not really dangerous, or else I wouldn't do it.
     
  2. Moe

    Moe Junior Member

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    Thanks Marko. i'll check it out.

    Thanks Richard. I think what i've been signing is a document that every PADI related program has. Its just a liability thing.

    I'm having second thoughts about writing a proper letter, because I realise now that I haven't looked into the matter far enough. I will probably do it anyway, but I have look look more into biofeedback of endosulfan, etc as was mentioned earlier. But pretty busy with other stuff at the moment.
     
  3. RichardM

    RichardM Junior Member

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    It's also a lot of horsesh!t, those disclaimers are a waste of time; if they are negligent, they are liable. If they aren't, then they're not.
     
  4. Mel Rene

    Mel Rene Junior Member

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    Some psticides are of such a high value for global food production that baning them wil casue not only starvationin already poor countries, like Africa, but wil make your wallet thinner month by month. Endosulfan as I hope You might know is the only soft to pollinators pesticide in the world. Honey bee pollination guarantees 1/3 of global food. The logical calculation is simple...once Endosulfan wil be banned, there wil be 1/3 food less in the world.
    Plus there is one more thing that makes me wonder recently...how come suddenly after more than 50 years of use of Endosulfan all countries follow EU in the ban procedure? After all Endosulfan was most widely used in EU some time back. Maybe this time ban of Endosulfan is connected more to corporate profits?

    Nevertheless I'm happy that Australia knows how to regulate use of such important substances. At least one country is aware of the fact that kiling honey bee will cause tremendous loss to human kind.
     
  5. Moe

    Moe Junior Member

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    I don't see the connection, sorry. Can you explain it further?
     
  6. Mel Rene

    Mel Rene Junior Member

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    Calculation is very easy in fact. Since honey bee pollinates 1/3 of global food and Endosulfan is currently the only soft pesticide used on crops pollinated by honey bee, which doesn't kill them, hence once it's gone and replaced by that so infamous Clothianidin, which is world-wide propagated by EU honey -bee will disappear from our planet faster than we think.
    Just a matter of small suggestion: just type in google: clothianidin + honey bee

    :) I just want to add one thing. I'm really against all chemicals, but I know that without some of them we really might face global food shortage. And I strongly believe that used wisely they can be safe for us.
     
  7. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    If we all farmer Organically no problem for honey bees
     
  8. Moe

    Moe Junior Member

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    Yeah I researched a bit on on the Neonicotinoid family of pesticides created by bayer & bayer. Seems like they effect insects by causing memory loss, immune problems, disorientation and some other symptoms; theoretically leading to CCD (I say theoretically as it is still being clarified if this is the cause of for Bee's).

    So true. Another massive problem with the endosulfan (and all chemicals for that matter) is that it will promote monocropping. I suspect this is an issue with immune system of the bee. I don't think they are receiving a healthy variety anymore. How could you be healthy if all you ate was i.e. tomatoes all day, every day?

    I do agree though, these nicotine based pesticides seem to be more adverse than endosulfan. The bees only need to be on and around plants sprayed by these chemicals to be effected. I saw some protesting done about them in France but the problem it seems was highlighted in a youtube video I watched - they took one product off the market which contained a neonicotinoid but there are still dozens that contain them either way.

    The other thing I saw was about the Varroa destructor mite that seems almost more serious than the pesticide.

    kind of depressing all this...

    At the end of the day it just does't make sense to me that we keep using all these chemicals. such a waste. Is it just easier to monocrop? why are people doing this? why cant a farm produce 10 different varieties of edible items like i.e. apples, lemons, potatoes and chicken, rather than just 1000 acres of wheat? You get better productivity acre per acre = more money.

    btw I haven't looked into CCD in Australia. Is it happening here?
     
  9. Mel Rene

    Mel Rene Junior Member

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    Hey Moe
    I'm really happy that someone actually made effort and browsed a bit.
    I agree fully that monocropping is terrible thing, and in the end it brings more loss than gain. By cultivating only one type of crop farmers risk all. Because if suddenly a pest will occur they will lose everything. If they were doing multi-cropping, they would at least keep other crops growing. I just don't see any connection to Endosulfan here.

    About that Neonicotinoids...terrible thing...few months back I found article in German about generally neonicotinoids. The result was that France banned it and Germany was still allowing the use of it, in my opinion only for bayer. There was also explained why varroa mite is not the reason for CCD.
    Varroa mite was brought at least to Europe more than 50 years ago. And for 50 years farmers managed to control it using simple sources. Even the president of German Beekeeper Association was really angry, hearing time by time how big companies blame varroa instead of checking the neonicotinoids influence.

    AllI wanted to say is also thing that EU was using Endosulfan for so many years, when European companies could manufacture it and had no competition in China and India and other countries. Nowadays it became a bit difficult to sell it, so seems it's better to ban it and introduce again something patented of own origin. But this is just pure speculation and I hope it will not be true or else whole moral image of Europe will fall in front of my eyes :(
     
  10. Moe

    Moe Junior Member

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    Yeah I was going to write a letter to the gov. about banning endosulfan but as I stated earlier, I need to know a lot more before I can say anything with assessing all the factors. By the way Mel, I do not dbout you are here to promote organic practices overall and worry for the well being of all.

    My rationale was that that; by using endosulfan, we promote monocropping by providing farmers an option to not invest in nature. Instead of sparying endosulfan on i.e. aphids we should promote ie lady bird habitat, employ another creature to reduce ants that farm the aphids etc. The first scenario will lead to endosulfan resistant aphids, require stronger doeses, etc exponentially. the second scenario will promote a living ecosystem which practically takes care of itself. Do you get what I'm saying?

    Even though endosulfan is considered not as bad for bees, it is still considered "moderately toxic" (Extension Toxicology Network (June 1996). Pesticide Information Profile: Endosulfan. Oregon State University). Moderately toxic is still too toxic for my liking. This will lead to immune system deficiencies that I mentioned earlier. I'll try and find some later research though.

    I also just found that "(endosulfan)... is produced by Bayer CropScience"; amongst other companies (Wikipedia). So do they want their market share back in the pesticide business? Is this what you were talking about before?

    What is the route cause here? Where do you start?

    Do you tell the government that their responsibility is to ban/control these dangerous chemicals?
    Do you boycott/promote boycotting of companies such as bayer?
    Do you promote permaculture to agribusiness?
    All of the above?

    I really don't want to waste time writing a letter to some guy who will put it aside and not care when it doesn't fight the route cause of the problem.

    In my understanding it goes Bayer wants money > hopes endosulf is banned > banning is successful > releases mass neonicotinoid > it is TM'ed or Copyrighted so no one else can make it > they get rich.

    So it all comes back to money being the route cause.
     
  11. Mel Rene

    Mel Rene Junior Member

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    Hi Moe
    I was thinking ant thinking what to write to you. The thing with organic farming is great idea, but we can't avoid the fact, that organic farming will not feed the world of more than 6 billion population. Currently world is facing already food shortage...my friends from Europe said that prices for basic articles went higher within last few years more than 100% ...shocking
    Plus I'm sure in countries like India or African countries people are facing worse hunger. :(
    And I really don't want this to get worse. Hence I can accept use of pesticides provided it will be REALLY safe one, like in Australia and America. These countries allowed use of Endosulfan under very strict conditions, and I must say it's passed the test.
    Recently I found quite interesting report on Endosulfan used in Arizona. I think you might be interested in reading it, so just follow this link:

    https://www.wrpmc.ucdavis.edu/NewsAlerts/endosulfanresponsearizona.pdf

    I have to admit Moe that you really got me involved in this searching for all types of information about Endfosulfan, ane the results are too chocking...just check the statement of New Zealand's Food Safety Authority under:
    https://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/publications/food-focus/2009-02/page-11.htm

    Endosulfan has not shown the potential to accumulate over time in animals. It metabolises faster than other organochlorines and it is extremely unlikely to affect humans at any level of intake that is likely to occur through residues on food.

    And there is also that professor from Australia Kennedy...
    Ivan Kennedy, professor of agriculture and environmental chemistry at the University of Sydney, said a sudden ban on endosulfan would not be in Australia's best interests and could cause some food prices to skyrocket.

    "Regions with temperate climates and lower insect pest pressure, such as New Zealand and northern Europe, can afford to ban endosulfan," he said.

    "It is irresponsible to expect those at greater risk from insects to follow suit when no suitable alternative exists."

    https://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/general/treaty-may-force-an-end-to-endosulfan/1658516.aspx?storypage=2

    What goes to toxicity, most of the pesticides are toxic, moderately toxic as their aim is to kill pests. If you check the LD values (which are general indicator for toxicity) more than 80 of the pesticides are moderately toxic. I promise to look for more information on this topic later :)

    Another thing is that I’m not blaming Bayer for trying to get back on the market, which is now taken by companies from developing countries.
    The issue with responsibility and boycotting is not only goverments’ matter as most countries in the world are from what I know parties of Rotterdam convention. And this organization is responsible for taking care for chemicals’ market all over the world. But as far as I have read they take their decision based only on discussions not on scientific research, so it’s of not much value :)

    Once I also read one very surprising thing on the website of EU commission. They said that they will support banning of potentially hazardous substances, but at the same time they will make the export of the same easier. So what the hell this means?? At this point I will take the side of poor developing countries, where Endosulfan and other molecules are needed to survive.
    Anyways I sh0ould go back to work, and in free time I’ll try to get some more information that might help You and me in making our voice lauder in the governments etc.
    Take care :)
     
  12. Moe

    Moe Junior Member

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    Sorry for not replying for a while. Been busy, and have frankly had not much to say. I'm still assessing what I should do. I just started work (as of tomorrow) at an organic fruit shop, so I guess its a small contribution, I still feel I need to do more though.
     
  13. Duncan

    Duncan Junior Member

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    Endosulfan

    I have worked in the Macadamia industry for over 10 years as an IPM consultant. Endosulfan has been used in IPM programs as an alternative to broad spectrum insecticides that kill everything in sight. It is also very cheep compared to other insecticides. The macadamis industry is holding onto this product as it is their best product on the market, even though many farmers will not use it.

    It is related to DDT, and there is no doubt in my mind it should be banned. IT IS A MATTER OF TIME REALLY.

    The problem is that the media stories have mixed up the issues. Carbendazim (spin) is a fungicide that has been used next to the fish hatchery, and it is this product that may be capable of such animal responses according to literature.

    The sooner they deal with this issue the better for our farmers, our consumers and our rural neighbours.

    Dunc
     
  14. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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  15. Mel Rene

    Mel Rene Junior Member

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    Yes, no doubt, but we are just looking at this one in this thread.

    Spraying everything that moves is not a good pest control strategy, nor is it the only way of controlling pests.

    Well maybe Mr Cochrane has not bothered to read the science.
    Do a Google scholar search and you get stuff like this:-
    "Using it safely" is only part of the problem. Its persistence, and unintended effects on the ecology, are also part of the problem
     
  16. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Has Endosulfan been banned in the US now?
     

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