Dodgy Science and "Permaculturists"

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by lostredwood, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. Cerddorion

    Cerddorion New Member

    Oct 27, 2016
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    Campti, LA, Natchitoches Parish, Zone 8
    central louisiana, zone 8a, Southern USA
    Permaculture as a whole should be reminded that we should always be looking to keep what works and discard what doesn't. As for making money from permaculture, as long as it's done in an honorable way and no one is harmed, then everyone is entitled to make a living in some way. Watch what a person does, because actions will always prove truer than words.
    mischief and 9anda1f like this.
  2. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

    Sep 12, 2013
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    gardening, reading, etc
    near St. Charles, MI, USoA
    Home Page:
    -15C-35C, 10cm rain/mo, clay, full sun, K-G Dfa=x=Dfb
    i never did try it out. but it appealed to me in the way that
    you could use wild creatures to do the moving around for you
    so the slingshot was overkill. i don't happen to have a supply
    of acorns unless i want to walk to the woods to find them and
    everything here grows so well/quickly that there really isn't
    any barren places to seed in. i like the clay/manure ball
    approach much better. drilling out acorns would seem to be a
    rather time consuming endeavor... :)
  3. paul wheaton

    paul wheaton Junior Member

    Jun 18, 2007
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    > Someone needs to actually do the study...

    I think right there is a big part of the problem. Rather than complaining that the study is not done and some "someone" needs to do it, I would rather that he step up and do the study that he would like to see done.

    Jacke has made great contributions to the world of permaculture, whether he is disenchanted with with the word or not.

    As for flying this perspective under the banner of "dodgy science": there are many schools of thought under the permaculture umbrella. And there are thousands of things we do as gardeners, farmers and homesteaders for which we have discovered what works for us, yet there is no white paper. Certainly we do not limit what we do day-to-day to wait for the white paper to prove that our ideas are sound. And if we take this approach, it stifles innovation and creativity that not only builds our values as permies, but can become the white papers of the future.

    I think some folks can never go to mars because nobody has gone to mars and written a white paper about it. And other folks will figure out how to get us to mars to blaze that trail, so that somebody else can then travel the same trail ten years later and write a white paper.

    There are many schools of thought under the permaculture umbrella. Some schools of thought lean on white papers and some are not concerned about white papers.

    Some audiences "need" the studies. Some audiences are satisfied with a youtube video of some doofus named "cletus" having great permaculture success.

    If we set aside the "dodgy science" subject line for a moment and focus on "I've always had a problem with the word 'permaculture,' to be honest." --- I think that we have seen a lot of really amazing people be turned off by the word "permaculture": Darren Doherty, Rob Hopkins, Masanobu Fukuoka, Sepp Holzer ... They explore ditching the word, or have entirely.

    If you want to know why, just read this very thread to find the clues. Permaculture enthusiasts tear down the efforts of other permaculture enthusiasts because they believe that ther is only one school of thought under the permaculture umbrella - their school of thought. And anything else must be torn down. There are enough of these people within permaculture that people that are making great progress choose to move their stuff forward without all that baggage of hostility - so they choose a different name for their efforts. Which splinters our collective momentum. Damn.

    In my own effort, on my own site, I choose to not publish that sort of hurtful thing. But, therein is the beauty of permaculture that I wish to embrace: there are many schools of thought, and there are many web sites with many philosophies and flavors.
    9anda1f likes this.

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