Disappointment in geofflawton.com

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by pebble, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    I agree with the niche stratification comments with regards pricing and format.

    My issue is with what could almost be called a bait and switch marketing approach. They send you a link to a video such as cold climate permaculture and then when you get there you see an online PDC advert. I got a response from the GL support team about my question of why they were no longer available and I was informed that they are only available if you are doing the PDC course and they may look at making them available in the future. I think if you look at the definition of bait and switch it fits pretty well.

    I, as I am sure everyone else did that is registered with the GL website, got an email this morning to tell me that if I did the course I would get a free earthworks DVD. That just added insult to injury as I did the course in January and due to all the rain we were unable to do any earthworks. We had a field day at a location that was very interesting plus a walk around Geoff's property and the rest was fundamentally packed up with anecdotes and videos with only mild relevance to earthworks. And no, I was not the only student who felt there was more padding than information, Geoff was even asked by one of the students near the end of the course if he could stay on topic as we were only up to page 2 of around 9 pages of the course.

    Anyway, not trying to sound negative but was surprised to find that the DVD would be free to the PDC participants but unavailable to anyone else - maybe the marketing team should have thought about all the people that have already done the course and especially ones who did not get from the course what was advertised to them. When you take into account the all up cost was around $2,000 for course fees, travel etc. it did not provide a ROI I would repeat.

    Consequently I have unsubscribed so I don't need to have anymore to do with the website.

    A shame as it did have potential.
     
  2. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Bait and Switch is when you advertise one product, then when a customer comes in "gasp" it's sold out, but we have this higher priced "similar" item...hmm......well then...you might be right with that hypothesis...

    I have pointed several people to those videos now, if nothing else they were good advertisements (and teasers) to take the PDC and to showcase what permaculture can do. They should have left them up.
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Thanks NGcomm, and everyone for their thoughts. I too was worried about being too negative but I think the primary impulse for me is feedback, and the easiest way initially was to express my discomfit. The bait and switch idea makes alot of sense about why I've been feeling disappointed.

    "I'm super excited that you signed up for my free online permaculture video series"

    That's what my original email said when I registered. I don't have any problem with Geoff using that to promote Pc or the PDC. But I do feel like it's a marketing strategy that treats people's interest as a commodity. If they had said that the videos will be up for a short period of time, there wouldn't have been a problem.

    I can also understand why they didn't want the vids to be downloadable, and why there is a staunch message about copyright on the sign up page. My disappointment is that I wanted to share those vids with people and was not able to easily and now they are gone.

    I've done a few online courses (paid for), and have seen some done well and others not so much. The ones that have been a good experience have been based on honesty and the owners being upfront about how things work. I think the model that offers free content alongside paid for content is a good one, and that the model that includes alot of passive income can work very well for both sides when done right, but it saddens me to see Geoff working at the end of the spectrum that is less respectful of the community that is naturally interested in what is being presented.
     
  4. Farside

    Farside Junior Member

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    I had a similar discussion with a business partner the other day. We were talking about new agencies, facebook, etc, and how unpalatable it is for the consumer to have something for free and then have a fee imposed. Once you give something away, you can't then turn around and start charging for it and not get a backlash.

    The key to successful marketing strategies online like this is to either charge for the service straight up, or offer a core service for free permanently, and offer peripheral added value services for a fee.

    Hopefully, Geoff is following the second strategy, albeit executed a little disjointly. In this case, the PDC is the added value pay service, and he will follow up with another awesome free video.
    My guess is that Geoff has a limited budget and human resource. This means he is most likely experiencing logistical difficulties in delivering both services simultaneously.

    Be patient. Like the Bible says: "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
     
  5. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I'd put my money on Geoff doing the "right thing" in the end personally.
     
  6. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    Second that. :y:
    If I had 800 Euro to spare I would have taken the course as a "refresher" (did a PDC many moons ago), to see more of his teaching style and to connect with more people.
    However, I agree with others that his promotional videos should have stayed up. Many people have linked these in forums, on FB etc. and those links are now dead. Especially the cold climate one was up for only a day I think. It's a shame because they were so brilliantly produced and could really "infect" people, as evidenced in the thousands of comments which are now also gone.
    Personally, the only thing that bummed me out a little was the sales tactic which in its wording in the mails I found somewhat reminiscent of a late-night shopping channel. But then I am a level-headed German. ;) Perhaps people respond to that.
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    From the lastest email.

    Given that this was sent at 11.30pm NZT on the day of closing (is that 9.30pm where Geoff lives?), and the PST time, I'm guessing now that the whole thing is overwhelmingly aimed at the US market. The whole 'be quick' and 'this might be your last chance' approach that makes me wince, looks like it has been designed by US marketers. Still makes me uncomfortable, as it looks like a process designed to get people to sign up before they can think it through. Which may be a useful strategy for increasing Pc to the masses, but it may just cement in mainstream consumerist culture while it does it. Yikes.

    It's ok, I always knew that Pc would compromise when it decided to go mainstream. I will watch with interest what happens next. Like others, I assume that Geoff is finding a way to make the online PDC work well :)
     
  8. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    30 day money back guarantee should put most people at ease(which should be ~3rd section of the PDC).
     
  9. Tasman

    Tasman Junior Member

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    Gosh I hope the project is a big success and we see Permaculture spread further. Also I hope Geoff can make a business success of the project. A widely available, high quality online course is a great thing. Especially for those of us who live in the back of beyond. However, I think the execution is to put it mildly, a bit off. Hopefully, its just Geoff getting the hang of online marketing.

    The trick is to deliver useful content to keep people coming back. Some percentage will take it further and sign up for the course. I signed up for the videos and watched the first video. I enjoyed it. Since then I've clicked on multiple links, each time to be taken to the advertisement video. I got multiple sign up now messages. The odd reminder is fine if I'm still getting something useful. However, the content was no longer useful. I unsubscribed.

    He has done a tremendous amount for permaculture. This venture, so far, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nevertheless, when I have the money I'd love to attend one of Geoff's courses.
     
  10. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Geoff lives in New South Wales, Australia at Zaytuna Farm.
     
  11. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    So, I am getting to follow along as my partner takes Geoff's online PDC ... not only to watch over her shoulder sometimes but I get to have great discussions with her about the course and what Geoff is saying.
    First off, this course hasn't even really started yet (starts Sunday) and there have been eight in-depth videos and lots of interchange on the course forums amongst folks from all over the world. In the videos, Geoff has the time and focus to really get into his subjects, with no classroom distractions. You can pause the video or go back over any parts you missed or need to hear again without disrupting Geoff's train of thought ... and his train(s) of thought are deep, his message clear. It's obvious Geoff has dedicated his life's work to Permaculture and his vast knowledge and experience really shine through, including some of his personal experiences giving courses and leading projects. Plus he has the time to carefully lay out each lesson and idea.

    It comes through loud and clear that Geoff and the PRI are all about getting Permaculture design skills into the hands of the people of the world as quickly and effectively as possible. From what I've seen so far, this online course will be amazingly successful in accomplishing this goal. Further, I am beginning to think that Geoff's online approach will provide more depth and detail than any possible "live" classroom, for the mere fact of the laser-like focus possible without the normal classroom type distractions and limited time periods. It appears that Geoff and the PRI team have poured their hearts and souls into this course and I am convinced that his students will be getting the best of the best Permaculture educations possible. I am truly impressed with the result.
     
  12. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Thanks 9anda1f :)
     

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