Depressed over high land prices, the effect on permaculture

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by Meridian, May 19, 2005.

  1. perception=reality

    perception=reality Junior Member

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    not everyone wants to be a farmer

    not everyone can be a farmer.

    For the first time in the history of humanity we have become an urban specie, meaning that there are more of us living in the cities than out in the country.

    I believe the only way permaculture can be viable to the masses is for it to go small. How much food can be grown on, say, a balcony? Not much for sure, maybe not even enough. What kinds of animals can one raise in the same space? Insects would be one easy answer since they eat garbage and have a high protein, but what about squab?

    Then of course there are rooftop gardens, but with the existing structure, the roof of a 30-storey apartment high-rise will have to serve a lot of people.

    A suburban backyard? A lot more possiblities there, but probably nothing bigger than a (one) pot-bellied pig.

    This is the kind of permaculture that I want to study. If I ever own land, It wouldn't be more than the space I grew up on 1.9 acres (2/3 hectare). But I don't think I will see land like this at a reasonable price in my area ever.

    In fact, any house around here for less than USD $200,000 is probably red-tagged!
     
  2. Meridian

    Meridian Junior Member

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    Hi All,

    Thanks all the wonderful replies.

    I just saw this article: Farm prices boom may soon end:

    So it looks like some patience is called for. I'm looking for a property in Victoria, but I guess I will stick with renting and working in the city for the moment while wages are relatively high. The upside is that I'm saving alot which will make any eventual purchase far far easier :)

    - Pete
     
  3. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    the one thing real estate agents are noted for is talking the market up and talking the market down all done to suit their needs or perceptions :twisted:

    in all the time that i can recall being involved in realt estate i realy can't recall prices falling across the board there may be pockets here and there but nothing to write home about. and any way if what they say actually happens then the rise in interest rates will more than negate any fall in property prices. the best advice has been given earlier bite the bullet and get out there and do it but buy wisely, and buy good land where you can afford it, there is much to consider, well more than what the average rainfall is anyway.

    also it realy doesn't matter what interest rates do they affect everyone who is buying land/home like death and taxes they are a fact of life over which you have no or little control.

    go to it

    len :)
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    just to keep the depression going and with mr real estate talking the market up or down :twisted: which ever way you look at it by saying "it's a buyers market - now's the time to buy" yep righto' way to go hey? :evil:

    anyway told you that one to tell you this one with rising fuel prices there are more and more people looking at rural land well out our way they are, and far from prices falling like mr real estate said sometime back they are steady and rising.

    and for those wanting to sell put it on the market at the price you think it is worth, take what real estate says with a grain of salt.

    len :D
     
  5. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Well the above posts say it all...some I'll go back and study up some more.
    I have 250acs, large livable house needs a bit of work which I bought in April for $330,000. That is a sizable morgage but we are both in our early 50's and have worked our way up to this property. The main thing is I live in a country town, 5 hrs from Sydney CBD. There is work in most towns..esp tradesman, nursing, teaching and some hospitality. Buy your own take-away or similar in most towns. The problem is most Australians think the world ends an hour from the coast or major city. We have a large agi high school, public and catholic primary in town, 2 doctors (good ones) and a small hospital. Several excellent private high schools within an hour.. school buses every day. Orange is a major regional city 45mins away. Bus/train to Sydney about $40 several days a week...regonial airway $99 to Sydney. And so it goes on..... There are oportunities.. you have to go look for them....come and visit some of us here ..I'm sure many others will welcome a visit. Farming for a living is the biggest gamble on earth I'm sure but combining a sustainable living with some paid income is much easier. I still hold on to my dream of making this place an intentional community/eco village or just group title...some day it will happen...fingers crossed.
    as Laws say "Keep the dream alive"
    Cathy
     
  6. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    :lol: forgot about Gunningband....nice name :lol: Its an acre flat land several sheds power and town water...was a school but the building burnt down...brick toilet block in working order...could move in with a caravan tomorrow. 20mins from Parkes..bitumin road $65,000. Email me for owners details
    Cathy
     
  7. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    Howdy all.. Been away up the Murray river for a fee days... Ahhh was nice to get back on the river .. Anyway..

    Sam and I are looking for land around here (Horsham, Vic) I work 45 from Horsham and don't mind the drive. Sam works in Horsham.. Our problem is that the farms here are relativly small compared to your broad acre types in NSW and WA. 3,000 Acres is a huge farm here. Due to the soil being so good , land prices range from around $1000 - $1500 an acre.. This is for farming land.

    But the way I see it. If I have to pay $10,000 for 10 acres.. that is a bargin. Try getting 10 acres for that on the outskirts of town.. What we have started doing with a few friends of our that are looking for the same change. Is we are asking farmers if they have a 5 - 10 acres corner of a paddock that has trees or may be cut off from the main paddock by a channel or something and seeing if he will sellit , as it isn't productive land for him. We have had some good feed back from it, so instead of just randomly asking farmers we have started driving around farms and picking spots and asking about particular areas.. Getting power was going to be a problem so we have sorted that by deciding to go full solar.. Which will be half the cost of get power lines here..

    Anyway off topic, .. As what everyone has said.. The trick is to know that , yep you can't afford that dream property.. But really, If you a dream property is something you made that way you wanted it.. Not what someone else has made, and your've just bought their dream
     
  8. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    land price

    high land price is bad for young people who want to start out a permaculture projecet, yes. But it prevents from a land-consuming livestyle as well. There are so many people with much to big houses. Or big gardens, which is not used at all, no veggies no flowers no trees only lawn. Streets are thwice as broad as necessary. and so on.
     
  9. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    the blocks of land here in town, are getting smaller... the old Aussie dream of having your 1/4 acres block... Now they are putting 4 houses / townhouses on that 1/4 and there is no such thing as back yards, just a small paved area,.... I can understand this in the city... But I live 3 hours from the city in a town of a POP of about 16,000,. there is plenty of land around.. Yet the greddy land owners are squeezing the houses in on top of each other, and people are gunna buy becuase there is no other land availible becuase it is being held on to or just to much. A town / house block in Horsham are retailling for around $80,000 for a 1/8 acre...
     
  10. Scott176

    Scott176 Junior Member

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    Ditto

    Hi Pete,

    I can't really make a positive contribution to your posting or make suggestions unlike some of the above replies. However, if it's any consolation, i can concur wholeheartedly with your comments and relate totally to your situation. I'm also one of those increasing number of people who need to work in the city yet don't make enough to afford a mortgage. This makes the dream of living a permaculture lifestyle very frustrating. Further comments and discussion in the permaculture community on this very big problem is needed and welcome.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. grantvdm

    grantvdm Junior Member

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    I know this thread was posted a very very long time ago... and it just ended so abruptly....

    Did you eventualy find land?

    I am in the same boat as you were then, mabey a bit better off.

    I live in Swakopmund, Namibia in a 150m2 apartment that i purchased on loan about 3 years ago before i read about permaculture. I am now hooked on the concenpt of permaculture and think that my natural insticts are kicking in (GROWING EVERYTHING I CAN GET SEEDS OF ON MY TINY LITTLE BALCONY! - MY WIFE THINKS I AM CRAZY!LOL!)!! I want OUt of the "great lifestyle" that i am living now, but find my self not being able to afford a piece of land outside of town where I can live my dreams!

    I have put my appartment up for sale last year (been struggling to sell - banks don't give loans so easy anymore) and seem to have finally got a buyer. Will make at least 10% profit on what i have put in so far, and am hoping to use this as a downpayement for a 10Ha piece of land with a realy crappy house (caravan type thing - toilet is in the kitchen!)!

    I am willing to sacrifice the "luxury" of waking up early every morning to come and work on a mine an hours drive away from town, for a peacful piece of land with a crappy house, but just waiting for someone to buy my appartment!

    Wouls be interesting to know if you got what you wanted???
     
  12. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    I wrote a piece about challenging oneself when it comes to such projects. I see someone tried resurrecting this thread, but to no avail. Too bad. I agree about the expense of land becoming more common place, but why not challenge yourself with land no one else really wanted ? Sometimes looking for that perfect place inst what you need. I love blank canvases when it comes to making complete changeovers. Isn't that what Permaculture Holy Man, Geoff Lawton did with his dead sea project ? Wonder how many actually paid attention to that video ?

    Most weedy areas which have been taken over by non-natives annuals(irrelevant which country - whole world has issues), are the result of an understand system being changed from a Mycorrhizal system to a predominantly bacterial system. That favours "Ruderals" or annual weeds. Most mycorrhizal plants have an impossible chance of taking back that system without help. That's something I did with land no one wanted to do anything with before I left California over seven years ago. Just posted the results last week. Next time you find yourself complaining about all the good land being taken, find some land for cheap that no one else wanted and challenge yourself.

    Note to All Eco-Activists: Why not challenge yourself to restore the Land that was Lost ?


    Just Sayin


    -
     
  13. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I reckon the saddest thing is that land is 'owned'. This is one of the fundamental problems with the way we run our society.
     
  14. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    To be totally honest, if I didn't own my own land I would have about zero interest in doing all that we do here. If I was sharing with other people the only motivation would be to feed myself and that is only a part of why we do what we do.
     
  15. Earth's Internet

    Earth's Internet Junior Member

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    Well, I can agree with this. When i worked as a Landscape supervisor in the maintenance division of a Property Management company, the renters trashed Mobile Homes and Apartments because, well after all it wasn't theirs. Owning land is a major plus in some instances, but certainly not a guarantee of folks doing the right thing. Communal Farming Cooperatives have also been proven not so ideal either. Hence most Ag Coops and Granges went out long ago. No one would cooperate. Communism's communal farms were also a total failure. Farmers were paid wages whether or not they harvested crops before an oncoming storm or not. So why put forth the extra effort.

    -
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    My input is about not only feeding me but having an excess to share.
     
  17. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    I am quite happy to share surplus and in fact we do. :)
     
  18. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    me too MITH.
     
  19. Tildesam

    Tildesam Junior Member

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    Although this was a long time ago - it's definitely something I can relate to.
    I've put a lot of effort into paying off my student loan as soon as I can - and I've almost got there within 3 years of leaving university.

    But that leaves me with no mortgage (good thing) but not as much savings as I'd like (bad thing).

    House and land prices are still dropping in Aus thanks to more financial woes across the world - but most parcels of land still come with some sort of "compromise".

    While I know the idea isn't to "own" land, as such, as I don't have any other significant assets - I feel particularly insecure. Owning land is sort of like a financial safety net, IMO. (Thats where the OP's bitterness about people owning land already may come from I think)

    Anyway, I don't think I'm getting anywhere with this. I guess the bottom line is that it's all very scary?
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    I concur. Do we ever really 'own' it? And if we believe so, was 'our' land ever legitimately acquired, as opposed to being 'stolen'? Rhetorical questions, in the main. However, for me, they do bring to mind the 1840 essay by Proudhon (1809-1865) titled: What is Property? In which he declared, 'property is robbery'.

    What about land outside your realm of 'ownership'? Is there any 'motivation' in your life to work (regenerate, maintain, enhance, etc.) this land?

    I don't agree that communal farming enterprises were/are a 'total failure'. Sure, there are plenty of examples where the ideology faltered, e.g. Mao's Great Leap Forward. However, there are also plenty of examples of where it continues to flourish, e.g. the Path Valley Collective.

    In permaculture, 'inputs', as too 'outputs', can be measured in many different ways (read: 'energy' pathways). I prefer to mix it up a bit - 'surplus' veges over the back and side fences; pro bono planning work; Landcare (formally), etc.

    Only if you allow it to be. What if you were able to find a group of people who shared your general philosophy in life (i.e. permaculture), and you teamed up with them in order to develop a 'shared ownership' land situation? Would this be something of interest?
     

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