Deep ripping

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by heftzwecke, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. heftzwecke

    heftzwecke Junior Member

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    I am going to increase my growing space this summer. Our land was filled (clay, asphalt concrete..) over and old swamp. It is highly compacted with 5 cm of topsoil.
    My main vegetable garden like a big bathtub and then filled in the huegelculture style. I works, but it was so much work, backbreaking that I will not ever do this again (I spare you the details). My first approach to extend the growing area was in form of huegelkultur bed but on the top of the existing "soil". It failed because it did not retain the water at all. And after removing some of the material it does nothing to the soil underneath.
    If I would try sheet mulching it would turn our similar, high runoff and not turning the soil underneath in real soil.
    So my plan is to either doing sheet mulch but using old roofing sheets (cheap) to hold enough mass in place, or I get someone to rip the soil deeply and then do sheet mulching on the top of it after getting rid of all the stones, concrete pavers etc. But who should I ask? We are not a agricultural area were tractors and implements are available.
    I could do Holzers method too, getting drenches dug out with a machine, which is logistically kind of difficult because you have strips of beds and in between the much narrower pathways.
     
  2. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    Hi mate,
    You really need soil-microbes. I don't know if you can get any quality microbes where you are but if nit in a few weeks I will give you some - You pay the freight cost.
     
  3. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    I live on "reclaimed" swamp myself, except that it was backfilled with Mississippi River sand over a clay hardpan. The only place I've heard of "urbanite" backfill is in England, though I've had no experience with it. So to understand your problem: Your soil is a mix of building refuse with high clay content gluing it all together, then it was compacted and is causing a high volume of water runoff? If that's the case, then there would be problems with deep ripping. Clay(especially compacted and wet clay) tends to not want to let loose of anything it has a hold on. If there is concrete deep in that clay, you may have to dig it out by hand, and that's going to be tedious.

    If I understand the problem, then I'd focus on creating soil on top of that mess. So I have to ask the questions: where do you live(I don't need your address, a city/country name would do, this is the internet after all)? Are there slope issues, or is the land relatively flat? Are there any groundcovers and other plants growing on your "soil"(lawn, wild grasses, broadleaf plants, trees. etc)? How much annual rainfall do you get? Are you suburban(which I assume because of the soil)? How large is the garden in sq ft or sq M?
     
  4. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    The answer is just about always organic matter , a property my parents retired onto had a garden / fruit orchard growing on top of rough fill .

    The previous owners ran ducks under the fruit trees so most of the hard work had been done and it was a great food garden for the time they were there .

    Feed and establish worms / soil organisms , do your sheet mulching build on top , "Take the time that it takes and it will take less time" .

    You could build a decent size wicking bed to get something going for now , very water efficient , maybe something like this or completely above ground
    https://milkwood.net/2010/05/11/how_to_make_a_wicking_bed/ Lots of great ideas out there .

    I have Aquaponic systems which are a great help for me through the nasty dry season , my ground garden got smashed in the heatwaves last summer but the AP kept churning out produce .
    Rob
     
  5. heftzwecke

    heftzwecke Junior Member

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    Peter thanks for the offer! Unmutual urbaite is a good word for it. I might really run a trial and sheet mulch on the top. I don't know why the soil is compacted. At the moment there is grass or weeds and grass. The other option is huegelculture but my experiences of huegelculture on the top are very bad and getting a machine in is a problem too you could do one or two beds and then you would have to call them in another time unless you let them pile everything what they dig out in one corner and wheelbarrow it back again. A bit of a work. The beds would have to be on top of the soil level anyway as the dug out beds would act like a bathtub, I don't know how difference it makes to have that woody stuff underneath. It attracts mice as I have seen in my other beds, bad if you want to plant pumpkins and the like.
    And we're in the Mountains cold climate Australia (but nothing like North America - 5C)
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    we have done deep single rips on clay fill it worked for us, also now using hugel' beds and they retain moisture need to use heaps of mulch hay type stuff, add lots of gyspum.

    len
     
  7. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Yep, you're going to need to create new soil, so to speak. Raised beds, as you already know, might be your best bet. You may want to check a native plant list and see if you can find some deciduous shrubs(shrubs that drop their leaves in winter), and if they also fix nitrogen(such as Eleaegnus spp., a N. American native) then so much the better. Sheet mulching does well, but as you already know, drainage has to be considered unless you plant appropriately. If you're basically starting a new ecosystem from plants on up, then I strongly suggest natives simply because they are adapted to your environment and the local insects, birds, etc. are adapted to those natives. You're going to want all the help you can get, and nature is a wonderful helper. Since you're in the cold mountains, and(hopefully not showing too much ignorance), Australia is either getting ready to or has just started spring, you might be able to rake up some tree leaves as free mulch. Just don't expect them to decay quickly. You may want to do an internet search for leaf mold(it's better than how it sounds). Humic acid might also improve the clay soil over time(won't do much for the urbanite though).

    Outside of importing a lot of compost, I can't really think of a quick fix for your entire yard. Hopefully others will chime in. Terra is at least in the same country as you, and he also knows his stuff.
     
  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Permaculture is about the long haul... ..ie don't expect major soil changes in 1 season.

    Keep in mind, when in doubt, OM it out. (OM = Organic Matter)

    Also, regarding.../sigh soil microbes..... please visit this thread: https://forums.permaculturenews.org/showthread.php?16994-Don-t-BUY-into-making-EM4-or-any-other-EM
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Part 2, another idea.


    Hey, uhm, check out the book 1491. There are some interesting ideas you will read about serious flood prone areas and how civilizations grew food. You may want to skim through it if you can find it.

    Think... Chinampas
     
  10. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    You could use a garden fork to loosen beds like the lawn technique of vertically driving fork down as far as possible and wobbling it to break up compaction , apply gypsum to treat the clay to help drainage .

    Plants that have root systems that are strong and go deep (Nature uses weeds to repair soil you can too ) will put organic matter underground for free . So even if you plant weeds find a way to grow most of your organic matter on site , in keyline farming pastures are ripped while growing to increase OM underground and manage soil moisture , on a small scale you can just cut your weeds / plants off below the surface and the roots will help build soil cut them off everytime they grow .

    Plant either Lupins / Faba Beans depending on soil Ph these will drive there roots down and of course provide nitrogen , once cut of they are finished and perfect for compost use , if your too water logged for these through winter plant them really early or later and water them to finish them off .

    Find a large source of animal manure to get a head start and grow your own each year with chooks if you can (silkies , pekins are very quiet ) or if not allowed a few pet pidgeons / rabbits / quail / guinea pigs find a way or import more you will never have enough .

    Compost all these materials or run through a worm setup , i keep an damp open bottom worm bin going all through summer as a refuge for worms , at the moment they are in mass everywhere i dig .

    If you take it all on , unless your very fit it can wear you down , start small in the best light / shelter area and expand at your own pace , get your weeds / worms ect working for you and not against you in the other areas .
    Rob
     
  11. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    Good soil microbes will open up the compacted soil.
     
  12. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    I have a property in Planting Zone 5 (is that cool or cold climate?) that is heavy wet clay (subsoil is 5 on the PH scale). Three years after dozing off the old stumps the local weeds are taking over, with mostly Goldenrod, Joe Pye weed, and various thistles loosening things up. I have some experience with this and think in 10 years the soil will be good to go. However, in this case, I now have a contour dam planned and will not see this particular area through..
     
  13. heftzwecke

    heftzwecke Junior Member

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    Sorry, I wasn't very attentive ultimately all this insanity going on...
    Rick zone 5 is not cool it is freezing, we can grow Avocadoes (bacon only).
    I think we don't have 10 years time to get more serious with food production there is too much crap flying around.
    I think I will make raised beds out of old roofing sheets cut in half lengthwise. I won't use starposts because they are expensive, I will use second hand hardwood in the corners and
    screw the sheets on. The hardwood will be far longer for easy trellising and netting.
     

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