David Holmgren Update

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by 9anda1f, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    for the complete version of the above please see G's post :)

    Grahame ( hug, slap).....poetic...the surfing metaphor, priceless.

    but mate, with Permaculture Lost, should we not give our message loud and CLEAR. i wonder if sweet metaphor might not be the best way of being clear.

    remember we are confronted with the limitations and constraints of the group think,,,,political correctness stands to block us,,,the inertia of the group is massive.

    and we are relegated as a marginalised minority ( officially/ permanently ) now.

    when one of your mob get blown up, because one of their mob has a cultural inclination to bombs....this is not a pick yourself up and paddle to the next wave scenario.


    "when in rome, do as the romans do,,,,,or do what the romans like."

    using some permaculure you can take this as " when in an occupied niche, be as the occupied niche, or be good to the occupied niche"

    i stand in solid defiance of the group think,,,,it's not like i have any intellectual choice in the matter....the group think is absurd and provably defeatist.

    Observable nature clumps 'like' organically, always conserving energy to effect this patterning.
    Hard edges are minimised by nature, yet its schitzo other 'evolution' just keeps challenging the mix.

    i doubt that meeting evolutionary challenge with idle wishful thinking, is the smart energy conserving way that a 'natural organism' would handle it.

    call me a radical - but i propose we model our human settlement systems on what nature does....and use Permaculture technique to hold the show at climax - i would call this sustainability.

    k
     
  2. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    sorry - continued.

    i would even go as far as to require all components of the system to have mutually beneficial relations with the system in total. If there are not multiple positive relationships - synergy the organism does not get in - it is excluded from the system.

    it is a corruption of Permaculture ethos when we are not solid on this ( or at least it would have been once )

    this multicultural bullshit with all the ingredients chucked in the one niche, because of some already discredited bigger picture of globalisation, is nothing more than a fashionable group think.

    globalisation sucks - we know that it only serves big business and that at the local level it is not a good idea at all.


    globalisation is an economic rationale, but it is the rationale of big business.,,,not the rationale of local community.
    when i talk human settlement it is in the context of design at the local level.

    who dares design for a one fit universal set of constants applicable to the entire planet??!! ......
    this must be New Permaculture because in the "old days", every site was different. We designed for locations sub to the globe.

    I step up to design for location ( place ) and in my design i provide for human settlement in that place.
    I use frith to determine who and how,
    i use nature to dictate the overarching framework of maintaining the niche, holding the settlement.

    and the best any one here can do,
    is offer the globalised view., and attack my design for place, with irrelevancies about the globe.

    hello world, i don't design globally, i'm an old school type of chap - i measure and fit.

    if you want design that looks after you and your people - see me.
    if you want design that looks after those who would replace your people - any one here should be able to help.

    k
     
  3. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    kimbo has it occurred to you that this would see you excluded? (& me too!)
     
  4. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    well if he was so wrong 25 years ago, perhaps he's wrong again?

    but in the meantime, haven't you enjoyed the work you've done? are your projects still thriving? what about your community? where do you fit?
     
  5. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    @helen; no, we would not be excluded; because at the local village level, and providing the organic sorting of people is related to Frith, no one just springs into being - you were born there, or have historical reason to be there, and the village comes to you - as Frith stacks your people around you.,,,,,note; don't imagine your kids, my kids and baulk at the notion.....
    in the context that we discuss this - both yours and my traitorous frithless bastards would not be as they are. They'd be culturally inclined, exiled or dead.
    ___________________________________________________________________________


    @songbird - haven't i enjoyed the work i've done ?? - no.

    work is work. and the results of me against the group think, me against the social programming are predictably small and crappy.

    i live as a hermit, i am a social exile, i am a poor frithless bastard, my life love of more than 25 years is doing naughties with gardening australia, and i support some severe mental disabilities,,,,not that i was aware of them before the world put me straight with this.

    i can not work a double wrong with Holmgren and get a good result.
    his wrong today cast dispersions over his right yesterday, or his right today casts dispersions over his wrong yesterday.

    i am so fkn stinging over that 'easy to convince' statement.

    and i have a pot shortage with a dire Seratonin deficit, so it won't get out of my mind.

    also,,,,,since embarking on this latest series of 'confrontational' posts,,,,knowing full well the likely responses,,,most of my nights sleep is spent running dodging bullets from strangers.

    this is the compelling evidence that i am not the 'full book'.
    it doesn't leap out as sane even to me.

    :)
    k
     
  6. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    I dunno about you, but over here on the east coast there is a glaring absence of people queuing up to embrace hard work, frugal living, mindfulness, spirituality, & commitment, let alone permaculture design. Still, maybe my time will come. Or maybe I will find my tribe & go to them :)

    What he actually said was:
    "it seems obvious to me that it is easier to convince a minority that they will be better off by disengaging from the system than any efforts to create mass movements demanding impossible outcomes or convincing elites to turn off the system that is currently keeping them in power."

    It was easier to convince you, & the others who made up the minority, that you would be better off disengaging from the system kp precisely because you are in the minority. If you weren't you'd be just another mindless dickhead living in Perth, mowing your lawn & vacuuming your swimming pool every Sunday. Be grateful that there are people (you) with balls out there who did put in the hard yards, so there are some fortresses left to shelter in when the shtf.
     
  7. Eugene von Guerard

    Eugene von Guerard Junior Member

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    ""Losing My Edge"


    Yeah, I'm losing my edge.
    I'm losing my edge.
    The kids are coming up from behind.
    I'm losing my edge.
    I'm losing my edge to the kids from France and from London.
    But I was there.

    I was there in 1968.
    I was there at the first Can show in Cologne.
    I'm losing my edge.
    I'm losing my edge to the kids whose footsteps I hear when they get on the decks.
    I'm losing my edge to the Internet seekers who can tell me every member of every good group from 1962 to 1978.
    I'm losing my edge.

    To all the kids in Tokyo and Berlin.
    I'm losing my edge to the art-school Brooklynites in little jackets and borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered eighties.

    But I'm losing my edge.
    I'm losing my edge, but I was there.
    I was there.
    But I was there.

    I'm losing my edge.
    I'm losing my edge.
    I can hear the footsteps every night on the decks.
    But I was there.
    I was there in 1974 at the first Suicide practices in a loft in New York City.
    I was working on the organ sounds with much patience.
    I was there when Captain Beefheart started up his first band.
    I told him, "Don't do it that way. You'll never make a dime."
    I was there.
    I was the first guy playing Daft Punk to the rock kids.
    I played it at CBGB's.
    Everybody thought I was crazy.
    We all know.
    I was there.
    I was there.
    I've never been wrong.

    I used to work in the record store.
    I had everything before anyone.
    I was there in the Paradise Garage DJ booth with Larry Levan.
    I was there in Jamaica during the great sound clashes.
    I woke up naked on the beach in Ibiza in 1988.

    But I'm losing my edge to better-looking people with better ideas and more talent.
    And they're actually really, really nice.

    I'm losing my edge.




    Abbreviated version - James Murphy - LCD Soundsystem


    :)
     
  8. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    He's not losing anything - he's just lost his stash is all :)
    Don't panic anyone - he'll be fine :)
    He has to be - he's a living legend :)
     
  9. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    well, i don't mind a challenging statement or conversation. it is what i'm often so short of here as i live somewhat isolated too, Ma is not inclined to difficult/politic/systems type thinking or conversations.

    where i keep rubbing the wrong elbows with what you write is some intermittent digs at gardeners or organic gardeners. as i see the gardener at least in the first step of finding some connection with the planet and living creatures aside from the tube/computer/cell-phone/iphone/... from gardening then there is the chance they'll hear about organic gardening and perhaps in their readings they'll hear about permaculture. that is about how i got here.

    a minority? sure. insignificant? no way. the life i see here on this small plot of land is so much more than what is happening in the farm fields around us (and i'm not really in full gear). it may not be certified permaculture, but it is what i can do with this place and these conditions.

    in 25 years you've not planted a thing? never improved the environment for the other critters? i'm a bit skeptical... look at what you've done from their perspective. if you're saying you've lived apart and critical of mainstream society why would you now give a cracker in a rainstorm as to what most people think? calling it crappy and small seems like you're getting into the imaginary heads of "most people" instead of keeping the focus on diversity and building habitat, edge effects, etc. if this seems like a bullet then perhaps it is just a warning shot over the bow?

    too simple? perhaps.
     
  10. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    According to google earth's measuring stick, and where people claim the gulf of mexico is, 45 miles. Some of that 45 miles is swamp, some of it is salt marsh(both count IMO), some of it is holding on to old names of areas that don't exist anymore(ie: salt water, but still on the continental shelf). I plan on moving ~450ft above sea level. Funny thing is, this area was also untouched by the last ice age, so I may have to import stone.

    But back to the conversation at hand. We do seem to be spinning quicker towards these environmental problems and permaculture has hardly made a dent in the scheme of things. I'm hoping this will change, and I'll gladly give a helping hand to the people who live around me. It's just not gotten bad enough yet. Wait till the food starts to dry up, or when water gets severely rationed.
     
  11. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    do i dislike gardeners?....no...

    @songbird....dear me no; i am 'tantum pro silva' that is 'only for the trees'.

    many thousands of trees; including food forest (orchards).
    i have undertaken conservation projects, applied for and received grants, i don't just plant at my place, i plant far and wide.

    i design habitat, collect seed, propagate and plant.....

    i collect tree genetics - i grow oaks and carob ( these are trees that get ignored a lot because they take longer than a lifetime to amount to much).

    i have maintained a powerful ambition for about 30 years to return sandalwood to the landscape it has vanished from, and in doing so return critical protein to this landscape.
    i plant thousands of sandalwood seeds, from my sandalwood trees every year.

    ours is a "land for wildlife property" - that is to say we have entered into a voluntary contract with the state government to manage our property as a wildlife reserve.

    i garden - that is what i do most of.
    i garden like an organic gardener - i compost - i ferment

    i am a pagan - i live for and worship nature ( in a totally slack, can of beer in hand kind of way )

    you may take it as a given, that i have all the conventional ways of contemporary permaculture, embedded as habit.

    and the other thing i do - is,,,,well you've seen :)

    when i piss on organic gardeners it is to be contextualised with the fact that i am also an organic gardener, but i am/was a permaculture designer - and this has jack shit to do with gardening, and everything to do with systems design.

    caveat - it used to be.

    it is a different thing these days and my type are redundant,,,,exercise failed, and likely bitter.

    i practise 'deep green ecology' - this term is typically embraced by us has beens ( Eugene) to describe where we end up post permaculture.

    i run a small holding with paddocks,,,so we've run sheep, cattle and a pig.....i do stuff like hand milk, make butter, make cheese.

    we live low consumption lifestyles - we have one and only one tap.

    we own our electrical and water supplies....water harvesting is a passion.

    we don't have debt, we don't live in a house, we seek the alternatives, we flee the group think.
    ____________________________________________________________________________

    no big deal
    bit of guts, no glory.
    _________________

    i am not just a big mouthed confrontational prick.....but it does tend to get noticed more than other stuff i do.

    i do rush in to aid the underdog - be it threatened species or threatened people....i cop it - frequently.
    i am not as i appear
    _______________________________cheers,

    k
     
  12. Green_Dragon

    Green_Dragon Junior Member

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    My worthless opinion......or 2 cents worth.

    For me Permaculture is a system of design to enhance landscapes with limited production into abundantly productive landscapes.

    Sounds old hat/hackneyed then so be it.

    I found this along with fugal living at the same time at the right time.

    When the student became ready to learn the teacher appeared.

    I live in a very urban, industrial shit hole.

    I have to cope with coal dust floating in from one direction and caustic soda discharge floating in from another.

    Yet I dream and I hunger for a better way.

    yep, I reduce my power consumption, make as much as I can, stretch the limits of what can be done on an urban block. Call me a rebel but I refuse to look up what the regional council "permits". I rather ask for forgiveness than beg for permission.
    So, I have my fruit trees, meat chickens, ducks. Hate lawn and plastic bags with a passion.

    Small steps but that hunger for a larger block, for more ground to expand and, to spread this old school permaculture "truth" has taken root.

    I'm by no means a soft sell and I'm a damned hard head but old school permaculture makes so much sense to me.

    I think Mr Holmgren's opinions don't hold any truth for me as a newbie who has cut her teeth on Mollison and Lawton.

    Damn it, Lawton's video's keep me awake at night.

    Excited by the possibilities in design and practical application and eventual successes. - I always plan to succeed but, damned me if I'm not surprised every single time it does actually work exactly to plan.
     
  13. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    David relishes in redesigning suburbs for future living, and for good reason. I would say that Melbourne is one sustainable city, in no small part from Holmgren's teachings. Think Permablitz, Cultivating Community and all the Transition networks happening in that city.

    Principle #7 Design from Patterns to Details is a good one to remember, and I think it helps to remember the bigger picture. This is something Davids book helps flesh out.

    Or maybe because it was the first book i saw on permaculture ???

    https://permaculturenews.org/2012/0...ng-the-suburbs-for-the-energy-descent-future/
     
  14. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    alrighty! :) so the unhappiness was a momentary bit of pissed offness and not an actual outlook on what you've done then? i just wanted to make sure that i didn't misunderstand that because i don't want to get 25 years down the road and be pissed that i'd done nothing. ;) because i really don't think that ways anyways. i already know i make a big difference even if i go tomorrow. i see it any time i'm outside in the summer. in the winter it's a bit harder to see as everything is hiding for the winter.

    otherwise, cheers and keep up the interesting conversations and the lines that keep making me laugh too, but don't take that as an order, because i'm not that sort of person either.

    ditto on the no debt, live simple, but have to have a house here or i'd be frozen solid right now and unable to type... we are on the grid and have to pay for heat but it isn't too horrible at the moment. eventually i hope to change some of that if i stick here. we'll see.
     
  15. Tildesam

    Tildesam Junior Member

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    I had the opportunity to hear David Holmgren speak a few months ago at a local Permaculture group (from whom I usually try to stay away).

    He pretty much iterated the same stuff.

    The overall impression I get is that we are only truly driven to action when there are no other options - and in this I think he's right; we can push as hard as we like to get (what I call "oily") society to go sustainable, but unless there is no other way, it will simply become another theoretical concept; a concept that can be commercialised (think the new obsession with the words "organic" and "sustainable").

    In the end, it will likely take the collapse of our systems (both ecological and economical) before any less luxurious option becomes truly viable, and it is then that we will see a mass movement towards low-energy systems, because then there will be no other way.

    I think what he's suggesting is that we, as supposedly more "informed" individuals should try and get this happening faster rather than wait for it to die slowly and painfully, and to be ready to embrace it as the only way (rather than an alternative lifestyle) and to be ready to help the people who start crying out for help once they realise they need to start finding their own food for instance.

    I didn't see it as a down-put of "us" over "them", rather as his best attempt to tell it like it is.

    Just my thoughts.
     
  16. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    That ticks a lot of boxes with me too. I think you have some good points there sammyjo :)
    And I hope you don't mind if I pinch your signature line quote from "Life of Brian" for another post :)
    I like the Nietzsche quote too by the way :) I think we might think alike in some things :)
     
  17. Tildesam

    Tildesam Junior Member

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    Not at all! Monty Python should be spread all over - it's how I found it's wisdom myself!
     
  18. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    It's pretty brilliant isn't it? And "Life of Brian" just tickles me to bits. Truly genius disguised as humour :)
     
  19. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    comments below make me think that David doesn't see the wider trend in society and industry. it is slow, but it is happening. when large corporations start seeing the benefit of efficiency in energy, water, etc. well they are almost forced to adopt it. and that is happening now to great effect. when a large corporation retrofits or upgrades the effects are vastly more than what me as a single small land holder can accomplish. yes, they are doing it because it is profit related, but that profit is coming to them via consumers who are being influenced by the green movement.

    some may lament the good old days, but i'm glad to see it getting wider and alternative adoption in the industrial/corporate community.

    this is a part of why i do think the future is not quite so bleak or the crash potential quite so abrupt.

    it doesn't excuse abuses, it doesn't say it is perfect, but it is happening.
     
  20. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    A thoughtful and insightful response to both David Holmgren and Rob Hopkins:

    https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-21/agency-on-demand-holmgren-hopkins-and-the-historical-problem-of-agency
     

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