David Hicks

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by heuristics, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    I know I am opening a can of works with this one, but I have been doing a lot of reading and researching on this issue for my own understanding and cannot help but add this piece of fact to the general community debate - the US actually created adn funded the extreemist Islamic schools that promote jihad as a weapon against the USSR in Afghanistan.
    US Admin reps are on the record saying the funding started in 1978.

    Here's an article from the Globalist.
    Or google US funding of madrassa schools pakistan and find your own links.


    The United States and Madrassas

    By Martin Schram | Sunday, September 21, 2003

    Looking back, it seems unbelievable that the U.S. government would ever hatch such a scheme. But during the presidency of Ronald Reagan — when all vision was still focused on the Cold War — the United States got itself into the business of sponsoring militant Islamic schools for Afghanistan, then a nation under the influence of the Soviet Union. Martin Schram explains.



    For many decades, international aid programs from the United States and the West have contained components under the broad rubric of education reform. Many millions have been spent — and unfortunately often misspent.

    Choosing hatred over academics

    But consider this painful but truthful concept: If the goal is to create at least a form of education for a state or region where there are simply no schools for children, then there is one notion of education reform that has unfortunately but successfully moved to fill this void. Created by Islamic fundamentalists, the madrassas are schools that have been co-opted by militants to teach hatred and violence at the expense of academics.

    The U.S. Agency for International Development was funding the foreign aid program that was essentially schooling this new generation of terrorists.

    The plan: Flood rural Afghanistan with millions of schoolbooks preaching and teaching Islamic militancy. Books reportedly filled with language celebrating jihad (holy war), violent images of war.

    A new generation of fighters

    Primers from which boys learned math by counting pictures of soldiers, tanks, guns and land mines.

    The Purpose: Create a generation of militant Islamic freedom fighters — another term might be terrorists — who would rise up and run the godless Soviet communist forces out of Afghanistan. Which they did. Then they stuck around.

    From mere boys to powerful men

    Those militant Islamic boys of the mid-1980s were the men in their twenties and thirties in Afghanistan when the Taliban was ruling that nation — and al Qaeda was using it as a safe base of operations.

    Indeed, the nation was being run in ways that should surely have appealed to those boys who had been made militant by the United States — supplied militant Muslim textbooks. So perhaps in that sense the Reagan-era plan can be considered as one foreign aid program that clearly produced results.

    Those Reagan-era texts, first distributed when Afghanistan was mainly a problem for the Soviet Union, went on to become in the post-Soviet era the Taliban's schoolbooks of choice.


    The United States may kill three to five members of al-Qaeda in a week.

    But those madrassas in any given week, are producing another 50 members who are willing to engage in Holy War.

    America's books were widely used in Afghanistan, but we didn't find out about it until March 23, 2002, when the Washington Post broke the story of the Reagan Administration's inane plan to "educate" a generation of Afghan youths.

    The books were still being shipped to Afghanistan until President Clinton's advisers halted the program in 1994. In January, 2002, the United Nations education agency, UNICEF, finally began printing new demilitarized textbooks.

    This was not the sort of secret story that the United States news media had to go all the way to Afghanistan to discover. Reporters could have learned of it back in the 1980s-right in America's heartland.

    For the U.S. Agency for International Development gave $51 million in grants to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies to develop these texts that preached of jihad and the glory of weapons.

    Interestingly, the Post report gave only passing mention to the militant, freedom-fighter-molding nature of the Islamic texts.

    The story focused mainly on the very Washingtonian angle of whether this never-disclosed program had violated U.S. constitutional prohibition on government money being used for a religious purpose.

    Ever since the events of September 11, 2001, the United States has declared that America's war on terrorism extends to all who harbor, aid and abet terrorism.

    And top U.S. officials sharply criticized the fact that wealthy Muslims have financed the private madrassas in the Middle East and elsewhere that foster hatred of Israel and promote militancy and Jihad as noble pursuits.

    Hypocrites all the way

    The U.S. State Department had been quite open in voicing its concerns about the indoctrination teachings of the madrassa schools in Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan — even though its own U.S. Agency for International Development was funding the foreign aid program that was essentially schooling this new generation of terrorists.

    And on January 17, 2002, Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in a press conference in Islamabad: "President Bush asked me just the other day, 'How can we help with the reformation of their school system, with making sure the madrassas are now educating youngsters well as indoctrinating youngsters?"

    Meet your enemy

    Powell said the United States would help Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf, reform his country’s education system.

    In the global war against all who harbor, aid or abet terrorism Washington's sleuths unfortunately don't have far to look to find those who once fed today's militant Afghani Muslims the steady dietary mix of militarism and radical Islam.

    In this bizarre footnote to American folly, U.S. historians can take their cue from the late but timeless sage of the comic pages, Walt Kelly, whose character Pogo once explained: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

    A difficult task

    Is it too late to turn this coming generation of militant Muslims around?
    If the goal is to create a form of education, then there is one notion of education reform that has unfortunately but successfully moved to fill this void — the madrassas.
    "You can," says Rohan Gunaratna, "but it is extremely difficult to change those who have graduated through those madrassas, because when those people come out of those madrassas, they also go to an environment of poverty, of hopelessness.

    And that is why it is so important that if we are going to end or reduce terrorism in the future, we must economically develop those areas.

    Otherwise those people will have no hope that — instead of going to the battlefield and dying — that they can lead a normal life.

    Most terrorists I have met, they are victims of their own circumstances. There are some very good people who have become bad people because of the circumstances.

    Even a good person like you can do something bad, in a bad circumstance. So it is the circumstance that has driven many people towards terrorism.

    That is why when we fight terrorism we must keep it always in our mind to create an opportunity for those terrorists to become normal people, for rehabilitation."

    "Al-Qaeda is continuing to recruit from the madrassas — the Islamic schools in Pakistan. Pakistan has already requested the United States for assistance to reform its education system.

    "As long as you permit the madrassas to function, the madrassas will be penetrated by Islamic groups. In Afghanistan the United States will kill three to five members of al-Qaeda in a week.

    But in those madrassas in a week, they are producing another 50 members who are willing to go and do a Holy War, or Jihad against the United States.”
     
  2. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    For some years I have had deep concerns about the unlawful detaining of David Hicks by the US military.

    I believe David Hicks is guilty of being a dickhead.



    But I dont know if he is guilty of being a terrorist ""of the worst type""" as has been claimed by members of the US military.

    I now no longer believe Hicks is able to achieve a fair trial after the length of time he has been detained at Gitmo and the highly emotive - and at this point unsubstantiated claims - that have been made about him by the US military.

    For my own greater understanding I have been googling and researching the circumstances around the detainment of Hicks in Afghanistan in October/November 2001.

    My questions are - at what point did the US declare war on the Taliban?
    At what point was the Taliban acknowledged as the government of Afghanistan? Hadnt the US been referring to the Taliban as a "rogue state"up until 2001? If the US wanted to oust the Taliban, why did they not provide adequate support to the Northern Alliance which was seeking to defeat the Taliban?

    At what point did the US cease its negotiations with the Taliban to construct an oil and gas pipeline through Afghanistan? (Negotiations documented as underway in August 2001. Taliban members visited US in 2000 to meet Bush and thrash out details of the deal. Google it yourself.)

    What financial or other support did the US provide to the Taliban in the years prior to October 2001? What about after 2001?

    Why did the US permit Pakistan to repatriate an estimated 3000 Taliban fighters to Pakistan by aircraft from Afghanistan in October 2001 in the days immediately prior to the detainment of Hicks and other foreign Taliban fighters?.

    Sydney Morning Herald war correspondant, Paul McGeough was in Afghanistan at the time the Pakistani Taliban fighters were airlifted out of Afghanistan. He writes about this on page 124 of his 2003 book "Manhattan to Baghdad"
    He writes"WE had been conned and we had missed a story. It seemed there had been a secret airlift out of Kunduz and that the US had been deeply involved in its organisation.............
    the real story was unearthed two months later by one of the doyens of US investigative journalism, Seymour Hersh.
    Writing in the New Yorker, he quoted US and Indian intelligence officials who said that the Bush administration had approved a Pakistani airlift in which and unknown number of Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters got away.

    And it had been organised at the highest levels - Pakistan's dictator president Pervez Musharraf had pleaded for the US to allow him to extract the Pakistanis because he was desperate to prevent a backlash in his own country. Pakistan was deeply divided over his support for the US and he worried that the mass return of body bags from Afghanistan could spark an uprising against his dictatorship.

    One of Hersh's cources told him that the White House had been involved in the planning, which required the US military to open a 300-kilometre air corridor through Afghan airspace for the Pakistani aircraft. ""

    Ï wonder - rather than Hicks being, as the US now claims, among the worst of the worst - is it not possible that the Taliban fighters they allowed to return to Pakistan might really constitute the worst of the worst? After all, unrest in Pakistan continues, as does the so-called "war on terror" in Afghanistan.

    Maybe the spotlight of scrutiny should be turned on the the extent and intention of the US in aiding and abetting terrorism as much as on David Hicks ?
     
  3. davo

    davo Junior Member

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    I don't believe David Hicks should be locked up either. But I feel you're in the wrong forum.

    WTF has this subject got to do with Permaculture? Please... :?
     
  4. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Davo, mate, Permaculture = Permanent Culture. That means it is all about everything that humans do. There isn't a subject that does not belong on this forum. Not a one. :D
     
  5. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    The interviews I've heard with David Hick's parents & friends led me to believe that he is, to borrow from Warren Zevon, "just an excitable boy". That opinion was strengthened last week when a mental health worker picked up my son who was hitching to Nimbin & told him she had worked with Hicks in an institution years ago & that he was just a typical ADD impulsive type of kid who loved to be where there was noise & action. No malice, no depth, just impulsive & lacking appreciation of consequences.
    And now for some really good news: I'm going to Nimbin next Monday to start my PDC with Robyn Francis @ Djanbung. Yeah!
     
  6. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    This whole Hicks thing makes me sick and ashamed to be Australian.

    Not since Breaker Morant [and Lt Peter Hancock] were murdered by Lord Kitchener has Australia stood by and watched such a travesty of justice.

    These guys were both shot at the hands of a foreign overlord and it looks like Hicks will go the same way.

    Like Morant before him it seems that Hicks will be sentenced by a military kangaroo court.

    Howard refused to pardon Morant and has also refused to involve our government with the Hicks case. I hope this disservice to our nation and constitution haunt the fucker to his dying days.

    It seems again that an Australian will die at the hands of a foreign power bent on making an example of someone, just NOT one of their own. This can only happen with the complicity of our government. A government that is not even fucking brave enough to state that Hicks is guilty of anything.

    I dont know if Hicks is guilty of anything but I can clearly see that our own government is guilty of negligence and dereliction.

    floot
     
  7. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    We should not be discussing Hicks' guilt or innocence here. That is the proper role of the due process of law.

    Whatever anyone chooses to believe about Hicks, he IS innocent until proven guilty. He has the RIGHT to fair trial, and to be charged and brought before a legally constituted court in a reasonable time. The U.S. and Australian Governments are the criminals here, as they are trangressing fundamental legal principles that go back nearly 800 years. And most insulting of all, they do it under the false pretense of "protecting our freedom".

    Hicks' detention is illegal and unjust. Simple as that.
     
  8. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    I just wish some people would learn how to vote for the right people for the right causes not for the money or the tax breaks.......


    Howard and bush are Traitors of the worst kind...Anyone notice how blair gets out of it..hes just as bad as em ll but thats Englnd for you..

    In the us or the uk its non compulsory to vote...in other words only those who really bother or those with a vested interest will vote....

    In this so called lucky comtry we are forced to vote weather we agree or not
    or even have a representative of our choice to vote for.....

    As someone once said ....we get what we deserve in politics....

    Dont blame the (useing this term lightly) leaders.....its dumb couldnt care less,im allright jack attitude thats gunna $%^& with this planet.
    that and the weather..

    Lets seceede from the US and well, Fuck Canberra...

    Think Globally act Locally..


    Tezza
     
  9. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    as already said hicks is innocent until proven guilty yet our govt has made up theor mind and abandoned him

    strange how even with guilty drug smuglers in Asia they still tried to stop the executions but will do nothing for hicks

    like floot I am ashamed to be an australian

    as for the USA we are witessing the worst war cimes the world has ever seen - Iraq - afganistan- guantanamo bay - torture - renditions and mass murder of civilians wih Depleted uranium

    and as long as our govt supports the US we are ALL complicit

    but seems we are just getting in deeper

    https://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... tml?page=2

    frosty
     
  10. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    - Magna Carta, 1215 (https://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/translation.html)

    - Constitution of the United Stated States of America, Sixth Ammendment. 1787-88

    It took 573 years for the principles set out in the Magna Carta to take the form of a constitutional democracy founded upon justice and law, that guaranteed an entire nation "inalienable rights". 213 years later, the electoral system was rorted (and again 4 years later) and an illegitimate president set to work to dismantle it. Hicks is just a symptom of a far greater crisis.
     
  11. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Poor, silly, unlucky David

    SEE also
    https://forums.hypography.com/social-sci ... stice.html

    It will be many years before we know the real story of the machinations of the CIA in Afghanistan and the Pakistan Secret Service.
    Both have their own agendas

    I have read a little of the story and it is pretty scary.
    Sometimes I wonder if the CIA is just not totally incompetent rather than evil.

    Does anyone know how to send "care" parcels to David (books, papers, vitamin D supplements, Vegemite etc.) Under the Geneva convention (Which Bush says is now in place) This ought to be possible.

    I head a nickname for Howard the other day "Bonzi" because he is a little Bush
    This is outrageous:
    https://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pm- ... 96341.html

    I sort of agree that this may not be the right forum for this discussion.
    But then again what is the point of growing anything unless we have a political-social-system/contract that works? and protects our freedoms and rights? Without that basic stability everything else is meaningless.

    The world becomes a scary place when I continually find myself agreeing with ex-PM Frazer- there is no way David can now get a fair trial. It would be too embarrassing for Howard and Bush.
    I thought that the rule-of-law was sacrosanct in a democracy
     
  12. PULSE

    PULSE Junior Member

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  13. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Once again this forum leads me to quote the old bearded man Bill Mollison himself,
    "evil is rigorously applied stupidity".
     
  14. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    Jenny Brockie on SBS Insight last night (Feb 20) conducted a wonderful examination of the Hicks case with both the US prosecutor and defense lawyers on line, Phillip Ruddock and Terry Hicks in the audience, among others.
    The program will be rescreened Fri Feb 23 at 2.30pm and Monday Feb 26 at 2.30pm.
    Highly recommended viewing.

    SBS followed the Insight forum with the documentary "The President Versus David Hicks" showing Terry Hicks tavelling to Afghanistan and Pakistan to try and understand what the hell his son was doing there in the first place and what had influenced him to follow the path of fate that he did. Very moving and you just have to ache for this loving father who is clueless as to what has motivated his son.
    At that time Hicks had been 18 months or 2 years without trial.

    The first time I saw the doco and thought about Hicks I was complacent, thinking right that the matter would naturally be sorted out soon.
    Wrongly, I was prepared to allow a little latitude towards the US in sorting through the charges and wotnot as the whole muddle was extremely complex. I beleived the US was compelled - for everyone's peace - to discover those responsible for 9/11.

    That was well before I woke up and understood more clearly what the CIA/US/Corporates/Oil has been doing across every pocket of the planet for the past 50 years.

    But now, with Hicks in Gitmo, tortured - in solitary 22hrs a day for five years and STILL no action?
    Anything Hicks MIGHT have known about al-Quaeda and Bin Laden in Oct 2001 has long since been overwhelmed by subsequent events.
    Since then we've invade Iraq and been complicit in how many deaths and tragedies in how many lives? (We'll never know)

    AS a child, learning about the Nazi gas chambers, I used to ask my parents why the German people didnt do anything. I never got an answer.

    I feel like I am complicit when I fail to act on this issue.

    Torturing Hicks was always wrong. Worse now, its pointless.
     
  15. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    I reckon I'll be watching that one.

    Meanwhile, if you're interested in a bit of history re the CIA, and have wondered why the US has been so paranoid about "communists", but shown absolutely no concern whatsover about fascism, take a look here: https://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/ar ... read=15727
     
  16. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Major Michael Mori on the Insight programme: "David Hicks has been in Guantanamo Bay for 5 years. That's long enough for doing nothing wrong under Australian law."

    Watching Phillip Ruddock lie, bold faced, in such a public forum and expect to be believed was painful and embarrassing. This government has no ligitimacy. The Australian people should know better than to support them.

    Again, Hicks' detention is illegal and unust, simple as that, and the Federal Government of Australia supports it.

    And I believe every forum is the appropriate place to discuss this topic. It's too important to overlook, by anyone.
     

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