1. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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  2. cdoug_e

    cdoug_e Junior Member

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    Cooperation not competition, empathy rather than anger. Its the same thread. Guys forgive your fathers, it helps.
     
  3. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Care to elaborate, Chief?
     
  4. cdoug_e

    cdoug_e Junior Member

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    Yeah no worries, this silly thread about course price has really showed me a lot about the need for empathy, nobody bothered ever to comment about my original post which was bring some empathy to the table, it has just kept going with anger. Guys really go back to the video link I posted and watch it, trust me it is well worth it to get some experience with the idea. We can dig all the swales and plant all the food forest and green all the deserts, but if we don't act with the ethic of people care, what are we doing this for. Please act with empathy is all I am saying. Should Permaculture teachers be making 15,000 dollars a course? If you think yes, then ok, some of us will be bound to think no. For that we should not be called trolls, told we are whining, and have no empathy shown. I teach Permaculture, I do it for a living, a meager one, but I do it. I get all the BS abotu insurance and .......... but I do it. First course I taught that wasn't for free was 225 Euros. Community driven initiative. We had 23 people, great course. So it can be done. But all that is nonsense anyways, just please don't bring so much anger to the table. That is why I said forgive your father, it is one of the reasons many of us carry anger. Just a suggestion, somebody once said it to me, and it helped cause that is where a lot of my anger resonates from. And while we are talking about that we should not compete on who has had bigger trauma in our lives, whether it is an African villager or NYC kid. Trauma is trauma, what our mind does with it can imprint the same physical blockage. Energy follows thought guys. Learn to love your neighbor, I mean Jesus was on it with the whole turn thy cheek comment, no?
     
  5. cdoug_e

    cdoug_e Junior Member

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    Oh and thanks for the chief racial slur too, I am Native American by the way.
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    'Racial slur? None intended, I assure you. I simply confused you with another individual who has recently joined us here at the PRI Forum, and who does identify as a Chief. My attempt at being respectful stems from my experience of being in the company of Aboriginal Australian elders. On these occasions, I refer to these people as 'Uncle', or 'Auntie'. It is a term of respect. I assumed that by addressing you in my mistaken belief that you were the other person I referred to with the title of Chief, that I was likewise showing respect. I am very sorry I got it wrong, and for the offence this has caused.

    I have no problem with trying to live an ethical life, including the ethic of 'people care'. This is a fact that should be glaringly obvious to anyone who should care to read any of my posts.

    Concerning 'Jesus': One of the ingrained traits that we humans have (mostly) come to rely on for guiding our ethical pursuits is the socially-constructed concept of 'compassion' that is primarily driven by adherence to (insert your preferred religion here). I have no problem with the belief structures of others. From time-to-time I may make reference to those various structures, but I would like to think that it is always in the context of any given thread of conversation. Personally, I am an atheist, so I look to the human condition and experience for support of any ethical considerations concerning my attempt to be a 'compassionate' being. Frankly, I see the concept of forgiving (for what, exactly?) one's father in relation to the topic of this thread as a little Freudian, and as such rather dated if not unconnected. But like I have said, each to their own. If that is your thing, then I respect your wish to express it.

    Returning to the topic: Regardless of what permaculture teachers make in terms of money when running a course - $20 or $20,000 - I think the value in having this conversation is the reminder that economic considerations of each course (and by default, each course teacher/s) should be judged upon individual merit (a fact that many, including myself, have previously in both this thread and others commentated upon). The original poster displayed ignorance on this matter by spraying all and sundry with the tag of 'rottenness' and as such was either gently reminded, or soundly beaten, as to the inappropriateness of the said statement. Now, an 'ethical' response based on the biblical foundation of 'love thy neighbour' and 'turn the other cheek' may well have been an appropriate platform for responding, but who I am (or you, for that matter) to judge? It is at times like this when I am also reminded of that old christian adage 'judge not least ye be judged' (my apologies if I have not quite got the right - there are just so many versions of the bible to choose from).

    Either way, I wish you all the very best.

    Cheerio, Markos.
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    cdoug, I've read your original post a couple of times and want to let you know that just because no-one comments on a post doesn't mean it's not appreciated. I appreciated your input :)

    Anger and empathy are not mutually exclusive in my world. Also, some people don't have a problem with anger and see it as a positive thing (it's what you do with the anger that counts).

    The OP was directed at the PRI, an organisation that has done such a huge amount for pc and the world, including subsidising PDCs for people without western funds. At the very least the poster was being ignorant. They were also rude and offensive. If someone came into my living room or community hall or pub and behaved like that (remember this is his first post and he didn't introduce himself) I'd probably stand up and ask him what the hell he was doing. It got off reasonably lightly here I think.

    There's a couple of his posts that I missed first time round, inlcuding this one, a response to my querying how someone could afford to fly across the world but not afford a PDC.

    Fly or hitchhike, it doesn't make much difference. There's still an energy investment that could instead be used to do a PDC at home (eg using the time needed to travel to NZ by land and boat to instead earn the money to pay for a PDC in Europe).

    But of course this person doesn't want to engage in the actual substantive issues here, does he?
     
  8. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    He's an angry guy with no money and wants things for free. He gets cheesed off when things don't go his way. He's got a lot to learn about how to get along in the world. Though i guess what doug is saying we should consider how we respond to such a person as angry responses don't refelct well on us or help us in anyway. . Its natural to be a bit turned off by the poster. But doug, i think, is saying we should override any automatic reactive responses and take a more chilled approach.

    I must say when i have been riled up by some mysterious internal thing (hormones perhaps) and have been unable to quell my own anger, i have always valued those people who could be calm and detached in the face of my aggression. I remember bank tellers are particularly good at this. I value that quality of calm in the face of aggro. I've done it myself on the other foot. My old italian landlord who also lived next door, had an uncontrollable temper. Once when he flung down the hammer he was holding in fury, I realised it was not about me. It was just him. I felt untouched and unharmed, so i felt i didn't need to react. It was great. A great feeling not to be offended, not to be upset, to be completely detached from someone else's emotional outburst. I think empathy is one thing, feeling detached is another but its a good way to feel in such situations.
     
  9. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Sorry, i've had a glass of wine and am inclined to rave on.
     
  10. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Please see my last post on the Books-that-inspire you thread lol
     
  11. derekh

    derekh Junior Member

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    I've held off replying to this thread since its inception but after a glass or two of fine port, I'll give it a shot.


    I agree with the concept of the originators comments and note that the price of PDCs has risen by some 300% since I first joined this forum (like my rates since amalgamation). To a point where even though I earn a 6 figure income, I hesitate to participate in a PDC because of the costs and to a lesser degree the free time required. I was actually prepared to attend a PDC with Leo (janahn) early 2011 but unfortunately he no longer teaches. I would also only partake a PDC in a climate similar to my property in SW QLD and Leo is only 250km away with similar climate and soils. Yes, a PDC is supposed to teach you to design in any climate but there's nothing like seeing and learning from someone else who has tackled and overcome your localised problems.

    Along the way I've attended an "Introduction to Permaculture" with Annette MacFarlane, "Design and Construct Swales" with Geoff L, "Keyline Design" with Darren D at Milkwood, "Stawbale Construction" with Huff N Puff, "Cordwood Construction" with Rob Roy, "Master Tree Grower", "Native Forest Management", "Making Windsor Chairs" and "Bodging", designed built and operated my own Aquaponics system for 3 years plus Certificates III in Horticulture and Landscape Construction, then throw in a few of Geoffs DVDs and various other books by Linda W and Jackie F. Individually, each course cost very little but the knowledge and experience and personal interaction has been invaluable. So, quite honestly, I cannot see what I would gain with a PDC (let alone justify the costs) but I would love to give WOOFing a try so I could share my experiences (still a WIP).

    I dropped off this forum for a year or more due to anger and negativity posted by members and it pains me to see evidence of it again. I also notice less posts of those who used to be prominent posters and wonder if that is maybe for the same reasons. I love Permaculture and love to think I have inspired others, at home and at work, by seeing their chicken tractor or no dig garden pics and even changing the way how my BIL manages his 7,000 acre cattle property. Yet, I have no PDC to hang on my wall.


    cheers
    Derek
     
  12. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

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    Forums are rough and tumble affairs people do get their feelings hurt and not all things are conveyed well,Leo was a classic example of that late night rants and attacks on other posters,etc etc etc.
    I think we are all guilty of it,my triggers are attacks against Geoff and PRI,and also religious or any other form of bigotry,I am not good with the woo woos either.
    I realize it takes all sorts.
    I am trying to be helpful where I can and trying to tame my outbursts but I am not St Francis, though I long to be.
    I will make it my new years resolution to treat all people with respect and courtesy even if they don't deserve it,if I slip up I would hope the forum will forgive me and remind me of my pledge.
    We are already better off now that bastard Bernado Soares has been packed of to the insane asylum so it should be a good year.
    Best Wishes
    Fernando Pessoa
    Although it's just another lap of the sun to me.
    I do wish that you all have a safe and happy new year and that your garden grow well.
     
  13. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I for one miss Bernardo.
    Straight talk brings a spice to the board and we need to be checked for sincerity from time to time by interjection posts from the likes of Bernardo and the rants of Kimbo are too missed for their ability to bring discussion to a different level.
    I hope they let Bernardo out on some occasions and that he visits with us here.

    I would love to know if Leo paid up though.

    By and large the contributions here are positive and helpful and if it get too rough then there is mandala town to find safe haven in. I like it here. Happy new year guys.
     

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