1. foronideo

    foronideo Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hello my friends, i am an activist of permaculture for quite some time here in portugal. Next year i was thinking about maybe travelling to australia or nz to make some course and get some more theoretical understanding about permaculture. What was my surprise to see the fees of the courses promoted in this site. Is permaculture for rich people? what are you thinking about guys? Education should be free or are you in this for money???!!! my god, you are all rotten to the bone! thank you but i ll continue to be an autodidact!!!!
     
  2. cdoug_e

    cdoug_e Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I will not comment on the prices of others courses but mate, come take a course with us in beautiful Sintra where you can see four different permaculture sites in a village above the beach and eat all organic freshly prepared food with an incredible community of people at a really great project for children for 350-400 Euros and you don't have to get on an airplane. I have taught many courses now and this summer will be the fourth in Sintra or alternatively if you want to see a broad-scale acreage site I am going to be doing one in Southern Spain not so far from Alentejo in April teaching a PDC and then again in the fall. We put on a very good course and yeah I am not Geoff Lawton or Darren Doherty, but we do a very good course and me and my teaching crew have studied with these folks and more. Look us up and we will be posting the course in the early parts of the next year. For now check out the following site of ours:
    www.treeyopermaculture.wordpress.com
     
  3. DonHansford

    DonHansford Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If we didn't worry about such things as insurance, text books, materials, seats, writing tables, covered area for the course to be held in, food handling training & certificates for staff to make the smoko / lunch, fire safety inspection / evacuation plan (some insurance companies demand this for any area where more than 10 people will be congregated), internet facilities for students & staff, accommodation, transport to/from airport/bus/train station at start and end of course, catering to suit a range of dietary, religious or ethnic requirements, and a few dozen other little details that go into running a successful course, we could cut the prices down.

    Not to mention the weeks of preparation leading up to the course, the cost of advertising, printing, etc. The fact that the teacher(s) are spending a few weeks of their time, away from their normal income source, means they need to have some form of renumeration, too. I would like nothing more than to travel the globe, dispensing Permaculture knowledge for free, but the reality is that someone, somewhere, has to pay.

    Australia is not a cheap place to conduct a business in. The cost of living is relatively high, land is absurdly expensive, and everywhere you look there are taxes, fees, imposts and charges that have to be paid by someone.

    Most people offering PDC's have a system whereby you can apply for a reduction, or even complete withdrawal of fees, if you can show a reasonable cause. Foronidio, have you tried contacting any of them and asking about fees, or are you simply going to sit in your corner and sulk? I would suggest that as an autodidact, you have missed a huge part of what is means to be a member of the Permaculture community, as evidenced by your childish outburst.

    Education should be free, and as soon as I can find someone else to pay my mortgage, feed my wife and myself, provide a safe and loving home base for my children and grandchildren, and leave me able to devote all my time to studying and teaching, the sooner I will run free courses.
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,922
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    G'day foronideo

    Welcome to the PRI Forum.

    Course fees vary, for many different reasons, some of which our good friends above have already pointed out. Many of the people you have painted with the broad brush of rottenness do in fact return a surplus by offering reduced or total fee wavering to those who can least afford it.

    In terms of travelling the world in search of a course, how sustainable can that be? How do you propose to offset the energy input required to get you here? Why not stay at home and study there? A Google search on the term 'portugal permaculture' returns a plethora of interesting options for you to consider.

    Education, in it's broadest sense, is free. Of course, being an autodidact you are well aware of this concept. However, what's good for the goose is good for the gander - Do you already offer your autodidactically-gained knowledge to others for free? And is this something that you plan to continue doing once you have your magic piece of paper (PDC)?

    I like your passion. Being able to come onto a forum such as this and with your introductory post spray all and sundry with your anger, shows that you at least have some go in you. But just like the fire hose that is not secured by its tender, the spray is worthless as it merely flails about with no real direction, and with very little effect. Try tempering your anger a little, and use some of that knowledge to which you have already gained in order to help you direct your passion to base of the fire.

    Don't concern your self too much with those that don't practice what they preach - obtain a yield but forget to apply self regulation and in the process return the surplus (Principles 3 and 4, and the 3rd ethic) - they number in the minority. They will soon whither away. Rather continue to search for those that do practice in a holistic manner. Better still, become one of the latter yourself. Autodidactism is a lonely road. Close the loop and reap what you sow. What goes around comes around.

    Cheerio, and hope to hear from you again soon, Markos.
     
  5. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,676
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree with you feronido, the courses are too expensive. However, you are better off doing a course in your own country where the teacher will be able to teach you about plants that are more suitable to your climate and where they will have a better knowledge of all the conditions and issues that will be pertinent to your situation. To me it makes no sense to travel to other parts of the world to do this course. I think its wrong that people go to thailand on a study holiday when they live in temperate Australia. It makes no sense. If courses only teach the princples, well you can get that out of a book.

    But it is wrong of you to expect that people shouldn't be able to earn from their efforts to teach you. How were you proposing to reward them if you were going to do the course for free. Its wrong to live as though everyone should provide for you free of charge. What were you proposing to offer in return for the teachers efforts that note have taken over two weeks to acquire the knowledge in a condensed for you, saving you years of time and work.
     
  6. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    2,456
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Farm manager/ educator
    Location:
    Hunter Valley New South Wales
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    warm temperate - some frost - changing every year
    I too nearly responded to your spray feronido but all I say is peace brother and I hope you get what is yours.

    To sunburns comment - it is important I think, to realize the PDC gives you skills to design in any part of the world. With key strategies and a new take on problem solving, you can do a PDC in Thailand and return home to apply the principles to your own situation. This is not really found in a book but in experiences and in (something else) that you get in a PDC and to realize that the course is not so much about species and conditions in your garden but about observation and design and solving problems by way of solutions in every facet of your life. Community, banking, infrustructure and much more will be looked at from a different perspective on completion

    Of course it makes little sense to fly around the world to get what you can get at home but I say again that there is much to attain from having done the course and this is not available in books and only sometimes available as part of a community group. As for cost well only you can decide the worth of things to you.
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,721
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    I'm curious too about this idea that one can afford an airfare across the globe yet not value the cost of a PDC. Myself, I can't afford an airfare AND a PDC, so when I have the means I will choose to do a PDC at home.
     
  8. foronideo

    foronideo Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    thank you for your answer, i really liked it! hope to listen from you soon! miguel
     
  9. foronideo

    foronideo Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    who told you i fly? dont read in between lines my friend, do u know me? bye
     
  10. Burra Maluca

    Burra Maluca Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Foronideo - it's not compulsory to do a course, and there's nothing wrong with being an autodidact. If what you want is more theory, save the airfare and buy some books. I don't know what you've studied already, but books like Gaia's Garden are good for this climate if it's the gardening aspect you're interested in, or Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability is good for theory. Edible Forest Gardens is brilliant too. There are places like Permaculture Visions that do distance learning courses, and there *are* courses in Portugal now so there's no need to travel that far unless you really want to.

    Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm only a burra...
     
  11. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In the abundance of water only the fool is thirsty........this guy is a troll.

    If he isn't he is one of these lazy bones kids that have sucked their parents money and are now using permaculture as adventure time.
    I am sick of being nice to these spoilt European brats,this idiot comes onto a site and the first three words out of his mouth are negative he has then continued to be negative
    Foronideot you are a disgrace to Portugal and a disgrace to yourself.
    You are no use to permaculture with your zealot ethics and activism,it all smacks of a spoilt little child stamping his feet
    If you can afford to leave your own town,you are very wealthy,if you can afford international air travel or any sort of international travel you are wealthy....just ask your daddy for some more money.......better still grow a spine and stop crying about a non profit organisation that sponsors many aid projects and students from around the world.If you don't come back it's good riddance to bad rubbish.
    Fernando
     
  12. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    That's the spirit Fernando! Go get 'im.

    I'm just putting on my steel-capped boots
     
  13. cdoug_e

    cdoug_e Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Wo, wo, wo guys, lets all just breath a bit. I think we all need to watch this TED talk video at the following link please as it is about empathy being our greatest challenge to come as a species:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG11gmv0p9s

    We really need to have empathy in our lives. I think we have all been frustrated by the cost of different items during our lives whether it be the cost of medicine in the states (i just got a bill for $5000 US dollars for a very quick trip I had to take in the states) or a new car when I was a teenager. Rather than bashing the guy, help him finds solutions. Even if he was a bit aggressive, we have all been there. Hell I have been at Nurseries buying Pineapple Guava trees in Portugal and been like darn, why is this so expensive? It is a fact of life that things are expensive and we all complain at some point about it. So I ask from my fellow Permaculture teachers that you explain things like budgets and all that with less aggression back. Please be empathetic towards our fellow brothers.

    And you guys are right about the cost, both sides. I mean I know Permaculture teachers who charge $1500 dollars for a course and make $10,000-$20,000 a course as their individual teaching fee. I aim for $2,000- 3,000. And yes my girlfriend dumped me recently cause I was broke and always on the road. I have taught PC courses in 5 continents and it is about to be number 6 this year. In the states and Auz and NZ, it is very American influenced which drives the price up because of things like insurances and taxes. When I was in India, I did a free course. So yes it is possible. Yes a 80 hour curriculum spread over 5 weeks and the students were volunteering at the project and I was volunteering my time as well so that I could give back to a group of people who helped plant trees in a dying ecosystem in southeast India. And in many ways this was subsidized by the fact that they were mostly westerners. It is complicated. But when i was in Malaysia and taught the first PDC there, we charged peanuts, and if you look at the woman prices they have quadrupled and now Australians are teaching. In Europe we often fly under the radar with things like insurance and taxes especially in Portugal cause it is the third world country of western Europe. So guys lets just have a little compassion. I mean right your granny is going to buy you some worthless Christmas gift in the next few days and despite your disagreement with the senseless consumerism you aren't going to call her a troll. Lets really act with intention when we post. Notice my earlier response, I simply remained positive. I often have troubles with the price of courses as well but what do you do. I mean when I get off this thread I have to finish writing a project proposal for some folks in Guinea Bissau, Africa which is a former Portuguese colony. So do I low ball it like I always do and keep having girlfriends dump me or do I charge a descent rate. Then I feel horrible that I would even charge money in one of the six poorest nations of the world. then I remember that I have been contacted by an NGO that is sponsored by Chevron and the likes. So shouldn't I ring them dry so that we can funnel money into other projects there instead of them buying bags of GMO white rice and calling that food aid.

    What I am trying to say on both sides guys is that it is possible and yes people like Geoff and Bill had at one time had a policy of giving a full scholarship after 20 people have paid in full. That may have been your chance with an initial calm post, so please guys empathy on both sides. Show love and compassion, find solutions not problems, right, isn't that our creed. Shouldn't when a frustrated person writes about the cost we search exhaustively for up and coming young pC teachers who are doing it at a cheaper rate so they can enter the market or let them know of people who do offer courses for a cheaper cost. So I am not taking side as the flame was ignited initially but we don't have to put hate or revenge into the energy of this site. We need to act consciously and with intention at all times. How many who wrote responses to the initial post sat down before they started writing and asked themselves what am I trying to accomplish by this thread. Remember energy follows thought guys. Much love, lets unite under a banner of peace and unity in PC. Cheers
     
  14. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,194
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    if you are travelling to aus?

    would you mind bringing me some acorns from your area
    be inventive to get them through customs
    i could in return show you my dehesa
     
  15. foronideo

    foronideo Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    this guy with the nickname fernando pessoa should read more poetry, or maybe the english translation is not that good! lol, i love your non profit organisations, beautiful name!
     
  16. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have attended an informal day permaculture course... nothing formal or organized. I am yet to do a PDC but desperately want to... the cost is an issue for me as well.

    I am looking at ways i can do the course without major out of pocket. I can fully justify the costs involved and wouldn't ridicule them or the good people like Geoff, Pear and others who offer them.

    I think its more important to look at ways of either being funded (by a community or sponsorship) or other ways of doing the course rather than belittling the people behind them as being Greedy... IMO that's the opposite of what permaculture is about.
     
  17. Burra Maluca

    Burra Maluca Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Andrew - there are a few different types of oak that grow here, you might want to specify which one you want. The two most interesting are the cork oak and the 'bolota' which has nice, big, edible acorns that don't need any treatment before you roast them.

    I'm afraid my budget doesn't allow for any kind of trip to Oz, inventive or otherwise, but you never know...
     
  18. DonHansford

    DonHansford Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    @ Burra Maluca - if Andrew doesn't want to take up your offer, I'd welcome some Bolota acorns, to add to my Guerrilla Gardening armoury :D

    @Eric - I hear you regarding the "out of pocket" costs. We offer an "extended delivery PDC course" here in Warwick, for just that reason. A lot of people can't afford a) the initial lump-sum cost of the PDC, or b) the time off work to attend a 2 week course. So we spread ours over roughly 3 months, with 2-day classes every second weekend (allowing for public holidays, always a bugger in the first half of the year).

    May be a tad difficult to commute from Tas every fortnight, :rofl: ... BUT! (there's always a but, isn't there?) As pretty much a "nobody" in the Permaculture world at this stage, we have to crawl before we can walk, and crawling involves things like paying the bills :( .

    If you think you can arrange for enough paying clients to do a course in your area (a minimum of 8 - 10 people, helps get a group dynamic happening), we could talk. We have special scholarships available for area organisers. ;) PM me if you want to talk details.

    We are trying to establish a system whereby a couple of "first world", paying courses per year, will allow us to be able to afford to offer a couple (or more) "third world" classes at little or no cost per year, in areas that have a real need, but little funding.
     
  19. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    2,456
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Farm manager/ educator
    Location:
    Hunter Valley New South Wales
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    warm temperate - some frost - changing every year
    At Purple Pear we too run in different formats - day a week, weekends and intensive and are always open to suggestions on payments. We offer places after ten participants either in part or full and also look at a LETS payment if suitable.

    I think that if you ask for some leeway it will be considered if it is fair and achievable.

    What is the saying on "catching more flies with honey than vinegar"? - I don't thing there is any real need to treat vitriolic posts such as the original with anything less than the contempt they deserve.
     
  20. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,194
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    its only latin passion (a powerfull and oft misunderstood life force,which we need like all energy to harness)
    would love some bolotta acorns?
    don don isnt far from me
    the best yielding cork oaks in aus are 20 km away from don could you collect some for me don??
    great to hear u are a GG i think the whole subject of gurilla gardening deserves a section in the forum
    i have a great little G garden including oak tree outside glen innes cop shop
    im currently thinking of planting artemesia on the road where the council has roundupped the guide posts then moving the guide posts
    artemesia named after the guddess of the moon glows at night so may be able to do wihhout guide posts!
    wanna play mr hansford
    happy watever your chosen deity mas
     

Share This Page

-->