Coming soon to a town near you?

Discussion in 'News from around the damp planet' started by Rick Larson, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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  2. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    Sorry, but this really is no got article on the situation in the Ukraine.
    Of course there are some radical forces involved, but most protestors only defended themselves and stood their ground on the Maidan. They were fired at (still nobody knows by whom) and several people were killed. They took the policemen hostage as a shield.

    Yesterday the police and military declared themselves solidary with the protestors and Janukowitsch was discharged by parliament.
    Today the situation is tense but silent. The parliament will vote a transitional government (most likely led by former head of government Timoschenko) and they will have new elections within a couple of month.
    The eastern parts of the country with a lot of people from Russian origin are of course a problem of its own. If they decide to split and connect to the Russian Federation, they should be allowed to do so. But I do not think they will really find a majority for this.
     
  3. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Don't be sorry. You have an interesting perspective, thanks for the comment.
     
  4. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    Update:
    The Ukrainian parliament has reintroduced the democratic constitution of 2004 and they elected Alexander Turtschinow (an intimate of Julia Tymoschenko) as interim president.

    The EU and the USA have both offered financial help as soon as the new government is operative. Russia is also offering to continue financial support.
     
  5. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Why do you think these offers come now? Do you think they will work in the context of the people having more opportunity?
     
  6. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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  7. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    The Ukraine and the EU have been negotiating a treaty of association for quite some time.
    After Janukowitsch took over and the system became more and more totalitarian, the cooperation got difficult. When Janukowitsch finally announced he would not sign the treaty and would prefer stronger bonds to Russia and China, the Ukrainian people became afraid of losing what was left from their former democratic achievements and Janukowitsch would finally be the new dictator.
    The EU always wanted to help the Ukraine develop to a free, democratic and stable country, because this secures peace and security of supply for everyone involved.
    Of course there are economic interests involved, as always when governments are at work. But we really have a lot of people here (including most politicians), who wish freedom and peace for every human deep from their heart.
    The protests in the Ukraine have been the dominating topic in our media for weeks. We all keep fingers crossed for them and are willing to support them with our tax money.
    Vitali Klitschko (the boxer is one of the opposition leaders) and other Ukrainians have been over here every couple of days to campaign for political and financial support .

    Putin of course does not want to lose the Ukraine as a puffer between Russia and the EU and more important between Russia and the USA´s sphere of influence. But he does not care much about who and how is ruling a country. We have seen this in Syria and other countries of Russian interest, too. He will support the leader as long as he is remaining power. The next day he will cooperate with the new government.

    I am not sure about the USA´s goals. Most Europeans are fed up with the fashion the US are enforcing their economic and power politic targets.
    In this the US (government, I am sure not all of the whole people) are very similar to Russia. They do not care a bit about life and freedom of the humans involved. Always willing to support a dictator as long as he is representing US interests. And even willing to dump democratically elected governments.
    In case of the Ukraine I would say: Your government wants to reduce the Russian and Chinese influence there as much as possible.
     
  8. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Interesting. However, there are a precious few living here in the USA that do not support the corporate effort at empire. But with reports like that linked below, highlighting and separating those in power, from the people, there is a chance for change. Most people living here are wrapped up in a type of thought control, where ideas of entertainment has replaced critical thought (just my opinion). I believe there is movement, so we'll see what happens once the economy here stalls.

    https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/02/i-crashed-a-wall-street-secret-society.html
     
  9. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    Yeah. In my humble opinion, the American people lost its fight for democracy against the real rich.
    As long as you can only become a promising presidential candidate with their financial backup and the help of their media, there will never again be real deputy of the people in charge.
    That is one of my biggest concerns regarding the EU, too. I want the EU to be a voluntary cooperation of free, sovereign nations. Should we ever evolve to the United States of Europe, it would be even worse than in the US, because of all the different languages involved. Big money would rule everything.

    Matt Damon reads from Howard Zinn´s speech “The Problem is Civil Obedience”:
    https://csglobe.com/matt-damon-one-greatest-speeches-ever/

    Is there some concept for “permaculture” politics?
    I really like diversity and small, self supplied , self governed, manageable units.
     
  10. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the insights Manfred. As for Venezuela, I've read numerous conflicting "news" stories about the Ukraine.

    Here's a peripheral piece about a why some of the protest activities may be occurring.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/blog/a-complex-systems-model-predicted-the-revolutions-sweeping-the-globe-right
     
  11. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    A low income and having to spent more and more of it for your daily food supply does sure add to it.
     
  12. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    The Matt Damon clip was powerful, and the vice clip documenting the clashes in Ukraine is a story.
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Due to economic pressures created by resource restraint, people will get angry, will want change and external powers will manipulate and manufacture these events, to seize control of resources, weaken enemies, maintain control and keep the illusion of BAU ticking along.
    Its cheaper to manufacture and fuel uprisings than to send in the troops and bomb democracy/compliance into them
     
  14. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    Looks like I underestimated the situation.
    In the Krim-region 30-50 armed men haveoccupied the regional parliament.
    The call themselves the defenders ofthe Russian speaking people of the Krim peninsula.
     
  15. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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  16. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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  17. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Awesome. In all my scratching around to find out about the situation in the Ukraine from multiple alternative and foreign news sites, Dmitri sums it all up (from lifelong experience) in one post, and includes a pithy summary of the Archdruid's conclusions on fascism in one sentence.

    Plus this insight:
    (my bold emphasis)
     
  18. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    I would add: So the children in the USA (not exclusive to age) can continue playing games on the internet where they can become experts.
     
  19. Manfred

    Manfred Junior Member

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    The BBC usually is a good source of information, as they have reports wherever action is in progress:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26405082

    I really do not understand why the Russians are going that far.
    The Ukraine has called in all reservists and is preparing for war to defend its territorial integrity.
     
  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    All wars are about resources/power /money.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Major_russian_gas_pipelines_to_europe.png
    There's a lot of gas pipeline going through the Ukraine.
    The West destabilising the Ukraine and gaining control, would be a strategic move against Russia's big ticket exports.
    Russia relies on gas and oil and is getting very rich because of it.
    Part of the fall of the Soviet Union was Regan getting the Saudis to pump more oil and drop prices,starving the Soviet of export dollars in order to collapse the Soviet. (while simultaneously propping up the Taliban making their war in Afghanistan more difficult.)
    This Is a similar play. but more about controlling supply routes and demanding compliance to a pro western agenda.
    Though if the soviets and Iran could have got a gas pipeline through Afghanistan they would have been able to supply India and China with no westerners getting a cut or being able to influence supply.
     

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