well at that better leave it with you eric, still a (once upon atime- and they lived happily ever after)fairy tale that does not show compassion and will give no results, ask them they cannot forecast the cost of it all and what or when the final result will be, your costing of power forgets that by the time renewable energy is less that coal and nuclear very many of the poor will have no access to it, so making one exhorbetantly expensive does not make the other cheaper uless you have the wealth, and from whence the wealth comes, comes the decimation of our habitat in the name of greed, in which case those who are going to afford it then should be buying it now. and it matters not whatranking you give vested interest agencies or people they are all merely propping up the original scientific supposition that began all this (i believe it comes under the heading "peerrevue/approval", group self approval). BOM can't even forecast the weather, maybe they should concentrate on tryig to get that right instead of supporting judgement of a furphy. len
More heat traps, higher temp. Humans have built more roads since the 1900's then not with more cars, but to simply come to the conjecture of I am suggesting to rip up roads appears to be a more fear based reaction then accepting the awareness of the problem. However, we are still doing worse, humans drop salts onto soil in the name of progress, destroying the soil, and keeping dark colored soil with no way to defend itself open to the skies to absorb more heat. Humans have increasingly pushed the envelope of what is comfortable at the expense of the air we all need to breath, the water we all need for drinking, and soil we need for food. Now humans have built a massive damn that IS changing the literal axis of the earth, which, again, will act like another heat trap, possibly causing new weather localized weather conditions (new lake effect snow pockets as an example) that will take a long time to completely understand the impacts of. The problem as I see it isn't the proof, it is all around us all. The problem is coming to terms with it, accepting it, and figuring out how to change it for the sake of the next 7 generations.
yep i see that, but that is not global warming by any means. best thing humans can do is to stop habitat destruction and start rehabilitating the decimated habitat now. len
"We would be foolish indeed to ignore the accumulated scientific evidence that mankind's behaviour has contributed to the process of global warming … Australia will continue to lead internationally on climate change, globally and in the Asia-Pacific region. Not in a way that lectures and moralises, but in a way that builds support for global action to tackle this enormous global challenge …" John Winston Howard, announcing his emissions trading scheme in a speech to the Liberal Party federal council in June 2007. Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/poli...-golden-boy-20110527-1f8fn.html#ixzz1NfHqj0js Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/poli...-golden-boy-20110527-1f8fn.html#ixzz1NfHkjbJP
Len, your anti-science position does nothing to further the permaculture cause. Anthropogenic climate change has been widely recognised by scientists for as long as 26-years: In 1985, at a UNEP/WMO meeting in Villach, Austria, a large group of scientists issued a statement asserting that continuing anthropogenic increases in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere would probably lead to significant global warming... Source: Bouma, Pearman & Manning (1996) Greenhouse: Coping with climate change. Melbourne: CSIRO Publishing, p. vii ...and today: Over many decades thousands of scientists have painted an unambiguous picture: the global climate is changing and humanity is almost surely the primary cause. The risks have never been clearer and the case for action has never been more urgent. Our Earth’s surface is warming rapidly and we can already see social, economic and environmental impacts in Australia. Failing to take sufficient action today entails potentially huge risks to our economy, society and way of life into the future. This is the critical decade for action. Source: The Critical Decade: A report from the Commission Please do yourself and the wider permaculture community a favour and read the above report, only then can we have a serious discussion. Thanks, Mark
I honestly think we will end up with a carbon tax within the next 10 years regardless of who is in charge, the Libs said NO GST, then we got it (epic fail!) then in WA they were against the mining super tax, but have just slid in a mining sub tax, etc, and i guess i don't really care - its just another alteration to be made to our lifestyles as cheap oil and cheap water dry up, power is privatised in most or all states so that got expensive and there is reduction in rainfall so a few cities are going for de-sal which is expensive - this is all happening by itself getting more costly without a carbon tax, so why can't we make the people who are using the last of these finite resources in ever increasing quantities pay a little more and encourage them to use less. Hopefully this will stretch out the "good old days" a little longer and make people pay for the mess they make. By the way Tasmania is a fairy land, the air is still clean and the sky is still blue - wish i was still there.....
The COSTS??? Some people have to pay the cost with their farms, homes and lives. The "do nothing and wait for the rapture" strategy isn't working for us too well.. The cost of my car insurance went DOWN when I switched to a "greencar", even though it was a couple years newer. Some insurance companies do that now.It made me happy.:rofl: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ WHILE THE rest of the world may have escaped the predicted Rapture over the weekend, residents of Joplin, Mo., endured a disaster of seemingly apocalyptic proportions Every ton of greenhouse gases entering the atmosphere not only drives up the earth’s temperature, causing potentially disruptive weather events, but raises the cost of taking action later on. Call it global warming, global weirding, or just a really freaky weather year. If we don’t begin to address the underlying causes of all this killer weather, 2011 may just be the beginning of a very dangerous new normal. excerpts https://articles.boston.com/2011-05-24/bostonglobe/29580723_1_weather-flood-levels-commodities
Just to throw more sparks on the fire. According to some core samples taken from ice in Antarctica, there have been periods in Earths history when the Carbon dioxide count was much higher than it is today. Most probable cause is volcanic activity. Next point, Nuclear energy produces green house gases. Pathologists apparently do some test when they need to determine whether a skeleton is historic or recent and the time frame is pre nuclear / post nuclear. Nuclear energy is not green. There wont be effective action taken if the monopolies that exist are allowed to continue to lie about what they do and the problems they cause. People wont stop using fossil fuels until there arent any, because they still have to go to work and pay their bills. I know better but I still do it every day no matter how guilty it makes me feel. My alternative is to lose my house and starve. Stop buying things! Good idea, but then what happens when people stop buying what you are selling? After all, they should be growing their own seedlings, then you have another downward spiral of economic gloom. Seems like the whole situation has gone completely feral and unstoppable, with everything so inter related, every solution I have ever thought of has huge downfalls attached, the only solutions that dont, are the ones that are too small to be very effective. Plant more trees.Walk.Grow your own food.Take cloth bags to the supermarket.Choose a glass jar product over a tin can or foil pouch and recycle it at home.....not enough. Perhaps we should also add ... stop breeding like flies.
To argue for a carbon tax i think we are going to have to address this confusion where the tax is seen as a cure for climate change because starving cattle and houses destroyed do not seem to upset some people not even to a "what if" state of mind. We all hear a hundred articles on the tv and radio and believe the few that seem to suit ourselves best. Mischeif - i have to agree that things are headed for a crash of some kind and i haven't found any good solutions either, but one thing that might help would be a well constructed carbon tax where the strawberries in our stores from South America were taxed to give local produce a chance - the small footprint, lets face it when things get thin we are not going to be able to afford the freight anyway. Then a tax the coal powered electricity grid, we always hear about renewables but they seem to be 10-20 percent more expensive so lets pay it and be done (half the population here in Perth like black roofs over white so theres an extra 30% more power in air con just for a color choice). Maybe, just maybe if we can buy more local stuff and support local farmers and industry, use renewable energy where possible, travel a bit less and grow our own tomatoes the future will not be such a bad place when we arrive. Or we could just blame the politicians and hide in our theatre rooms.
g'day muschief, lots in your mail, especially grey areas of doubt, in those situations thee obviously is no clear cut tangable line to follow, so people can see themselves how a certain any fix might work. those who worship this ccc from the top down including their cohorts the gov' have not sold this to the masses. now there is a lot of illusion to a dream land in this worship where everybody will be using renewables, mind you no one has costed it nor have they worked out if making and transporting and installing renewables that need eplacement say every 20 - 30 years,will stop the production of this particular carbon that permiates around 20% of the atmosphere (i think that is what is said). now then we need to look at renewables, decentralised renewables will cost as, the further you transport power the more it costs. as has been lauded by a stalwart here, renewables will work better decentralised, mind you i'm only talking home power. so how do you get it on to all homes (surely that would be the target?) all homes means flat/units, pesioners, tenants, the rich, the think they are rich (neither of the latter are showing any support as they aren't falling over themselves to put panels on their rooves. and of course it is going to be very difficult to swing industry over to it, if there is still any industry here that is by now selling less product, do they want to realy push the price of their product upward, against imported product that comes from o/seas where there is no carbon industry? still hearing from people i know who have friends who fell for solar and it is saving them nothing, that is the hidden legacy of gid connected solar hey, should all bestand alone, there will never be enough of it on rooves to make any diffrence. actually panels are being removed from rooves, i don't get to see many rooves with solar panelsbut one yumpie built huse we pasoften over the past 5 years built this new wow factor house an tehn putall thesepanelson eh roof, in that psnaof 4 yearsteh panels ahvebeen taken down, why dunno? but they are not there. now having said tha lots of property buyes will not want to buy a house thathas panels, why would they because there is no financial assistance when obsolescence kicks in is there. now then as renewable power is the most expensive, the plan is to push coal fired to a level where niclear first appears cheaper (manipulation) so thee will be all these N power stations constructed last i heard 7 for Qld. now is'tthat amuch safer fuel than coal, we ahve to store the waste of all we sell + some i'd say. so from ths point on the masses in this "lucky country" are sliding further down as they are already now having dificulties with rises in all utilities plus food, so buy the time we get to that paradise of the ccc'ers, springtide your strawb's will be rotting on the shelf, unless you can sell direct to the wastefull rich set who feel no matter how bad it gets they can affod to buy water, power, and air. we the underclasses have ceded defeat, as this carbon industry is going to happen, as the promotes of it tell the desperately poor in other countries that their plight is because of us affluent people in our countries, so that when the ccc doesn't change those poor people will be wanting to do harm to us, that is a pretty low thing to do those people have been desperately poor, for a lot longer that ccc has been around, and it is caused by their displacement at the hands of government, not by the poor in countries full of affluence. so having cedded, which means they win, they still will not or simply cannot answer the questions asked (look through all other like thread find them if you want, another forum Aussies Livig Simply the same no answers by the supporters), funny how supposition can project doom and gloom but it can't project the path to glory. don't see the relationship between this ccc furphy and starving cattle (most likely greedy farmers over grazing as a natural drought arrives), and houses being desroyed in all sort of natural earth actions, mind you they have all happened before, and that is before this ccc industry. one report "the worst storm since 1953!", so does that mean 50 years ago the planet was just as bad as it is now? the US has been there for 300 years what happened ove the first 250 years to cause that 1953 storm?? len
If we can't understand the past, how can we understand the present?' Understanding what is happening right under our noses does not require paleoclimate perfection https://www.grist.org/article/if-we-cant-understand-the-past-how-can-we-understand-the-present from https://www.grist.org/article/series/skeptics even if the hockey stick was busted... What of it? The case for anthropogenic global warming originally came from studies of climate mechanics, not from reconstructions of past temperatures seeking a cause. Warnings about current warming trends came out years before Mann’s hockey stick graph. Even if the world were incontrovertibly warmer 1,000 years ago, it would not change the fact that the recent rapid rise in CO2 explains the current episode of warming more credibly than any natural factor does—and that no natural factor seems poised to offset further warming in the years ahead. excerpt https://www.scientificamerican.com/...answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense&page=2
People believe what it suits them to believe. In particular, people most often believe what their egos want them to believe in order to remain in control of who we truely are. Trying to convince an ego that it is wrong is exactly what egos use in order to strengthen their position. The world will never change by attempting to change the position of an ego. Best to stop banging our heads against the brick-walls of others egos and work on getting our own under control first
good point grahame, bit hard to work out which side you are on, but no mate. me i don't have an ego, i have compassion for my fellow man, i know whence i came and to where i am going, i have no issues to drown with alcohol or gambling or believing in feel good measures that science promotes, so yes i agree with you. len
I'll take it that you still have not read the report then, Len? It's a bit sad, really. Some people are so eager to read/listen to any old anti-scence, whacky conspiracy theories, and repost them here as if they were the gospel, but when offered the opportunity to analyse and debate some real, rational scientific findings, they run a mile. I understand the reasoning, of course, I just find it sad that those who have an opportunity to educate themselves in the affluent world choose not to, yet those who live in abject poverty in developing regions with little or no opportunity to access education, crave for it so much. Oh well, best I prepare for tomorrow's class, least I too add to this conundrum.
mark, those who can only attack the person and not the script maybe don't have that much to offer. why should i read more scientific hogwash when questions have been asked that need straight answers no more and more self supporting links. i din't run anywhere obviously, so got no idea who you allude to. i feel i am educated if something doesn't make sense then it probably is nonsense, the best rule of life is the common sense rule. the best way to help the poor who need education is to give it to them (that counts for the poor here also, these ones shouldn't be fare game for the manipultors) not try and make the poor of affluent societies the scape goat (manipulation). want to feed a man show him how to grow, and you will feed him for life. i for one and there are many do want education from men of false prophecy science. but keep up your personal attacks, would not like to see you alter your character. len
Len I do not see that Marko was personally attacking you and am not sure what you hope to gain but not entering the discussion with some openness. I wonder if you have read your excellent signature lately?
Not a personal attack, Len, merely an observation, hence the qualifier, 'some people...'. Writing of personal attacks: Being a social scientist I could feel 'attacked' each time an anthropogenic climate change denier scoffs in their expression against anything that has a mere whiff of rational science related to it - but I choose not to. The reason why is simple. It is because I do understand that there are some people within our affluent society that are indeed marginalised and as a result find it hard to access adequate educational opportunities. Likewise, I also understand that it is often these very same people who by failing to comprehend even the most simple and logical of scientific discourse find it much easier to digest the tripe that the purveyors of pseudoscience serve them up on a daily basis. This is what I mean when I say the situation is 'a bit sad'. I am sorry if you feel I have personally attacked you, that was not my intention. However, I do again ask that you read the latest report (please find a link to the 2-page summary, below) as it very well much relates to this particular thread, and maybe then we can have a rational debate? Either that, or perhaps take up PPs advice concerning your own motto and 'be content with what you have [within] a world that you may not understand'. Climate Commission - The Critical Decade: Key Messages Cheerio, Mark
anyhow i did take a look at it yes it is just more fluff to support the hypothosy supposition of ccc, the increased heat wave days are only down south primarily vic', south aus' and last summer perth, but if you look at the destruction of the habitat that insulates from the heat in the center then you will under stand why they have increased days but not increased heat. i remember heat wave days in melbourne back in the early 70's long before ccc became the catch cry, vic' was the first state to clear their mulga the stump jump plow was invented so they could plough this at best marginal land, now up here we are getting the odd day longer of heat as we clear our brigalow scrub in the name of farming. every weather event this past summer hear and what has just occured in the US has all happened before. in Qld add in a bit of gov' bungling. i have said before and i stick to it as i am one of the poor that the stand overs wipe their feet on. no one else that i have seen has shown much compassion. when they show us common people some tangable proof not hop on some band wagon then claim ownership something that makes sense and fits into common sense, because from this end down here you don't have any supporters, so it hasn't been sold it has been dictated, i already ceded defeat for the people who now find it a struggle to live week to week. some years back when i believed in o-zone holes you may have caught me, but then along came 2 aussie scientists who claimed that a vortex was going to set up over the antartic hole, if they stopped there i might still have been had, i even believed in el-nino and la-nina, but no they didn't stop there while they got their moment of glory in front of a camera, they said this vortex just like an electrolux vacuum cleaner was going to suck all our weather south over tasmania and blow it out the o-zone hole into the black void of space, yes i did check to see that it wasn't april 1st. so now the o-zone holes have lost favour as no ccc worshippers (they have their gospel it's called ccc hypothesis) wants to mention them (too late the opportunitites were there in past threads), so now as i look more closely the el-nino/la-nina stuff is scientific clap trap and as the weather forecasters haven't gotten any better those southern oscilation figures are very doubtfull the thing that hurts is people are suffering as public health collapses and other people are getting paid good money for all the above stuff. like i have said i have said most it before even though we masses have lost we asked for straight answers from the supporters and got none, so for me that is end of story. len
