Choice of lining under mulch?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Jackalan, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. Jackalan

    Jackalan Junior Member

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    Hi!

    For most of the plots I have put down cardboard and mulched with leaves on top. However in one corner there is already a groundsheet as lining, (plastic, lots of interwoven strings sort of thing) around a bunch of established blackberries.

    My question is whether its best to remove this material and replace with a better lining or simply throw a bunch of leaves on top, and plant as usual. I've heard of using carpet and lino as lining, so does it make a difference?

    Thanks a bunch,
    regards
    jack
     
  2. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    while i am not a big fan of plastics or other oil based materials if you already have them then they can be used. most plastics will eventually break down when exposed to the sun/UV rays. it's a mess to try to clean up fragments of plastics after they've started falling apart...

    some of the troubles with plastics/sheeting is that it doesn't let air/water through and so if you were to put it around an already established plant it might kill it or knock it back a bit until it adjusts to the new environment. some weed barrier fabrics do allow moisture and air through, but they don't seem to be very sturdy.

    cardboard degrades if you have moisture and the soil critters (worms and pill bugs are the biggest decomposers of cardboard here), that is why i use it only as a temporary barrier and then replant with desired species through it and the mulch.
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    What's the lining for?

    Unless you can find really old carpet (not sure where you are but at least pre-70s), it will have a plastic backing. Lots of carpet is also loaded with chemicals (either anti-fungals etc from the manufacturers, or cleaning chemicals from owners). I would guess that even really old lino has chemicals in it that you wouldn't want in the garden. I wouldn't use either.

    Is the woven groundsheet doing anything useful?
     
  4. Jackalan

    Jackalan Junior Member

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    The groundsheet is for suppressing the weeds, which it has done a good job of so far, but only around a few blackberries. I guess planting more herbaceous plants among these will help with getting air, water and mulch into the ground so I'll just do that for now. Will also mulch and plant more around the old carpet around all the fruit trees (which has already been there for a couple of years now so not so worried about chemicals). Having recently watched 'The Permaculture Orchard' where thick plastic lining is used (with dripping pipes underneath) he showed a nice example of how worms will come up through any holes, collect leaves around the holes then pull them down into the ground.

    Anyway thanks for the replies and what a great forum! I will be posting more questions with pictures I hope.
     
  5. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    You best helpers are the worms, so you want them to be able to come up into your mulch, assuming you are talking about mowed grass/leaves etc., and not rocks. I don't know why people call rocks mulch, but they aren't, they don't improve soil.

    So if your mulch is thick enough, as in as thick as a shovel blade, it will suppress weeds, and it will shrink and get dense and great, and worms will hang out in it. Then you can plant right in the mulch. Keep adding mulch, maintain it at a hand's depth year 'round, and you won't have to worry about weeds, except maybe on the edges, and that can be mowed with a mower.

    Carpet is really bad stuff, when it breaks down it's toxic.
     
  6. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    we call any things that go on top to keep weeds down mulch. i suppose in the strict dictionary definition non-decomposable hard materials like crushed limestone should not be called mulch, but it is serving the same purpose... : )
     
  7. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Songbird, yeah, I've noticed this trend to call anything over the top mulch. But I think it's important to make a distinction between something that will improve the soil, such as compost, as opposed to something that will just cover it over and add nothing, or in the case of wood chips, add possible growth inhibitors. What amazing differences among those things. I've seen a lot of beginning gardeners get confused about this, and buy truck loads of wood chips without understanding how to make them work for plants. :)

    -------

    I found a nice website with some interesting paths. I particularly like the moss and stone path, because with the stones sunken down, they can be mowed over when weeds show up.

    https://blog.builddirect.com/cool-garden-paths-that-are-off-the-beaten-path/
     
  8. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    I agree with you sweetpea,

    I have always distinguished between "mulch" and "soil/ ground cover" and "cover crop". I know a lot of nursery men who do not do this, calling everything that is used for weed suppression mulch. I tell folks, that mulch is something that you will get to renew every year because it is deteriorating and going into the ground. Ground cover is stable and usually river stone, pea gravel, or lava rock, used to hide a landscape fabric but not to improve the soil beneath. This stuff is used by me only around commercial buildings where they are looking for very low maintenance and keeping their costs down to a minimum, but still want pretty plantings.

    I have put in Formal gardens and used fine crush stone (usually bluestone chips) for pathways. This makes for a nice feel underfoot and at the 4 inch thickness I prefer, it also keeps volunteer plants from coming up through the base landscape cloth. This type of path also has borders to help hold the stone chips in place. My personal preference for permanent pathways is Irish or Scottish Moss, by using these I have the option of not having to use a border material (my favorite is 1/4" thick 6" tall redwood board placed into a 2" deep trench and staked with short redwood pieces.
     
  9. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Bryant, I just read your signature line at the bottom! :D
     
  10. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I just cried inside... that... that's horrible, and not Permaculture. It literally goes against everything taught by Geoff Lawton, Bill Mollison, Toby, Holzer, Hart, Hazelip, Fukuoka, etc.

    The plastic suppression as Brynt and others mentioned has no place in an orchard. How do you feed the soil? How are you going to build up the mycellium elements that trees want in the ground?




    Well now I know why the Permaculture is fucked up, they partnered with my Permaculture nemesis
     
  11. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I have to admit I have been raging for over a week about that film, and its Permaculture misinformation. Even more disappointed at some of the well known names attached to it praising it for $.
     
  12. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    I guess everyone does have a price that they will accept for endorsement of something, no matter if it holds to principles touted or not. It's a sad statement of the condition of the "experts".
     
  13. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    ok, i went and watched a short clip that i think is from the film. i did not see a preponderance of plastic sheet mulching in that clip. i saw a little of it in part of the clip, but i saw a lot of what i would expect to see on a diverse polycultural orchard.


    this update addresses the use of plastic in short:

    https://www.permacultureorchard.com/fall-2014-update-video/

    much more use of it in this clip, but notice he's showing early stage where the
    trees are not very big, that is, he's showing where there are places for enough light
    and room to grow veggies.

    seems like it is all to him questions of labor and availability of materials.

    the response given makes it clear that this orchard is not a single person small plot. it is a commercial variation upon the food forest and a type of CSA. that he chose as he did to not find another way to situate his rows and find a better method instead of plastic is unfortunate, but tell me in comparison to a full on commercial orchard would you rather have his set up or the latter? i'd not want the plastic either, but i'll take it any time in comparison to what is usually done on any commercial orchard. those folks spray a lot.
     
  14. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    I think it is accurate to make the statement; One does the best they can with the materials readily available with in the given time and monetary restraints. In the larger, overall picture this is all you can expect anyone to do.

    I have worked in a variety of commercial orchards, some biodynamic based and some pure commercial profit only oriented.

    It has been my experience that when the owners went to as close to natural, biodynamic designs, the actual profitability of the orchard continually improved. These orchards used less spraying of insecticides and fertilizers than the pure commercial, profit oriented only ones. The reason for this was the fact that they didn't need to use nearly as much of the chemical treatments once the orchards were established and cycling with the natural methods for fertility of soil and pest control.

    In Sacramento California I got to help an orchard convert their methodology, within three years their expenses were cut to 1/5 of the prior to conversion outlays. Soil fertility had been increased by the use of composted bovine and chicken manures mixed with sea weeds and granite dust. The amount and quality of fruit set and harvested increased at the same time. This orchard had been operating near the red and by the third year they were firmly in the black. While I was working on this orchard, I was recruited to help two vineyards and we saw similar improvements there.
     
  15. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    almost any thoughtful adoption of permaculture and organic techniques can reduce outlay costs, but often that has to include reduced production (fallowing and cover crops must be in some rotation if you're going to do annual veggies) until the system can recover fertility and soil organic material. then there is the transition to other production if you include the trees and berry bushes and shrubs.
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Well, that's my point, if the movie had an actual food forest for an orchard I would of been happy, but instead it is another half-assed approach that diminishes what we do.
     
  17. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    It would be very refreshing to see a permaculture or polyculture type movie that actually did what the title implied with out being a documentary. I think it would get more people involved with the cause, they might even get the idea that permaculture methods aren't just for "hippie types". A lot of the people I talk to seem to think that is the case. It takes a lot of convincing to get a main stream farmer to turn even one field into a true polyculture or permaculture model, once they do and continue the path for a couple of years, they see the light.

    It is a disservice to permaculture/ polyculture to produce something that ends up being misinformation, it only hurts the move towards sustainable, truly healthy food methods.
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I recently got into an argument that Permaculture was a new Ag fad. It really boiled my blood for a day.

    I agree, we do need a good film akin to that.
     
  19. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Really? a new Ag fad. Gee I guess that when modern man came on the scene and began "farming" that was the beginning of modern agriculture then. I've had people say similar to me, I just point out that more than 20 thousand years ago humans were growing things and harvesting these things for food. They didn't have horses or plows or anything more than a wood or bone or horn pick or hoe to break the ground with, so they broke as little ground as needed to get seeds to grow. It was much later on that Plows are found and what we now call tillage was begun.

    I have found a friend that is in the movie business, now all I need to do is get them to listen to an idea and go forward with it.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I got the cameraman, and 2 sound techs from the movie business, one of which knows how to work Dolby boxes for Dolby. My problem is I am still building the property, but perhaps, that might be a good reason to start now...?
     

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