to be honest I am starting to think that we (mankind and perhaps the whole planet ) have little chance. To do so will require an enormous UNITED effort by everyone and humans are just too selfish or unable to grasp the enormity of what is required. I am amazed at people who think all that will happen is it will get hotter - and so all they have to do is turn up the aircon :evil: if the govt gives them a rebate they may instal solar power but if not they prefer to buy a new car or a bigger aircon. even on the greener boards most think all they have to do is grow a bit of their own food, cut power and water use and not use plastic bags !!! No one wants to know about methane clathrates or how they will make the atmosphere unsuitable for breathing - if anyone wants links I can post some but I guess I am too pessimistic to bother finding them in case those who are interested probably know anyway and I owe you an appology for my attitude. I guess this is really just a bt of a rant but deep down I am hoping that somewhere I can find some people who really do face up to the mess we are all in. of course I will keep doing what I can to reduce my carbon fotprint and become self sufficient but it does need more people to do more . some of my ideas include boycotting goods from countries that dont set binding targets - top of that list would have to be USA but if I mention that all I get is tuts about being anti american :evil: There must be some way to wake people up - to get past the compacency that nothing bad is really going to happen and the world will go on much the same - to stop believing if it wasnt it would be on the evening news - and since its not its just crazy "doomers" trying to upset them frustrated frosty
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Hi Fosty To be honest I have very little hope at this point in time, but I do feel the shock wave from peak oil will flip a lot of thing's on their heads, our current level of fast paced everything is all based on cheap energy, oil peaked 05-06 and will start to fall 2010-2012, between now and then thing's are going to get crazy, real crazy and we will see the US/China/Russia go to war in some way again to gain even more energy sources. I know this does not answer your question or comment, but it does to me as the only real option of slowing this crazy climate change is population reduction on a massive scale, any technology developed to "fix" the problem will as always make it worst. People and business don't want to give up anything these day's, they think technology will fix everything. They are blindly wrong in my eye's. I'm watching and getting ready for this mess to unfold, I'm lucky to have water, land and open eye's to see what's coming. Climate change is a result of cheap energy, this is about to change.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change It really is sad to have to cause such extremes in order to find out after the fact how vulnerable we really are.I find I have to blindly believe in a positive future,I have young kids, it gives me something to work towards.If only everyone used permaculture.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Yeah tis a bit of a bugger that. Still we've had it pretty easy until now, and after a good decade of mad consuming and decadent irresponsibility (nice one Bush/Howard) as the corporations cashed up as much as they could before the wheels fell off. Like any binge you've got to come down some time. Its been obscene watching the consumption on one hand and the worlds accumulating problems on the other. Australians consume more energy than any other country per capita, and just because we are a small nation doesn't really allow us to point fingers at the US or China because they have more people. In any case the reason China produces so much pollution and consumes so much is to provide us with cheap things to consume, so if you added that to our energy consumption we really start to look bad. Incidentally we recently got the most over weight nation award too. Personally I think what has broken the west and allowed us to run madly into consumer heaven in complete ignorance, is the free trade agreements. It destroyed us because with all our fair working conditions and environmental policy for ourselves we couldn't compete with nations who were less scrupulous, yet we support them because its so much cheaper and people are only human. So we have sent all our money to these less scrupulous nations in our decadent binge, and allowed our own capability to make things to dwindle. Bad management decision. So while our national debt is escalating, our manufacturing dwindling and our economy propped up internationally by raw material sales, they decided to prop up our domestic economy by encouraging personal debt. Over the ten year period I watch everyone in my age group and younger borrow sums of money unheard of in the history of civilization, here in Aus, in the US and in the UK. This personal debt fuels the economy and encourages employment and all the things which a 'healthy' country needs to prosper. But of course this is a totally short term vision and only works while real estate prices continue to climb. As soon as they reach obscene proportions and become out of reach of first home buyers, who are egged on a bit longer by giving them money without needing the deposit, then it no longer becomes attractive to borrow so much because the interest rates increase your debt faster than the house increases in value. Right now we are teetering on the cusp of denial, and I haven't even mentioned energy prices yet. Last night I saw the Thai farmers reverting back to plowing the rice fields with buffalo. It cost too much to hire the tractor this year so they are relearning how to do it with buffalo. The tractor business sits idle while theres now a three year waiting list for buffalo. Thailand is a pretty western country, they have the second biggest pickup truck market after the US. This is the turning point in history, where the 'free' energy, those millions of years of concentrated sunlight are exhausted. It has begun. So while I hold no hope for humanity to be clever enough or even willing to make sacrifices unless forced to, I see thankfully that the age of oil is ending, as is the age of western prosperity. Unfortunately the rate of consumption is still rocketing upwards, so it depends where the crunch comes first. Its just that the Chinese are now becoming independently wealthy and don't need us in the west to buy their products as much anymore. Now they get to consume their own goods. The Chinese just said, "oh you want it all and you want it now? If you are encouraged to be gluttons then we shall feed you until you are crippled.” They took the fat bully's money (gained by beating up other kids for their lunch money) and fed him candy until he was too fat to move. Very clever long term strategists, unlike us in the west who have had the wealth of our nations stripped and sold off to the corporations, who are now wealthier than some nations, to support our good times. Its the downfall of democracy, people vote for the guy who promises immediate prosperity. All those great infrastructures we built as a nation we allowed to be auctioned off to corporations. The US is in even worse shape except they have the greatest military power ever amassed, so even though they are bankrupt they can enforce their dominance. So how does this tie into your methane which will bubble from the ocean floor and smother us all? I have no idea, but you're right, we have one hell of a mess on our hands. It is possible that the Chinese will be more responsible with the environment than we have been, as their political policy isn't influence so heavily by the corporations who need consumption and growth at any cost. But so far they have been so focused on expanding and developing, they have been treating their environment as badly as we did in the west while we were expanding, except they have far more people and are growing far far quicker. Just be thankful you aren't Kevin Rudd, who has been left with this legacy, although we are all in this together, its inevitable that some pretty big changes are going to have to occur. It will be so easy for the opposition to point the finger at him and say he caused it, when really it was the whole period since WWII, the banks, chemical/weapons manufacturers etc and their TV stations which have taken us down the path of rampant consumption. The Libs just played along with the rest of the western world, like a third world puppet dictatorship. Consumption and economic growth have been our gods but its time to re evaluate and do what those Thai farmers have done. Think for yourself, look for opportunities and don't believe the hype.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change I too think this species has few long term prospects. I fear for the whole planet and for all the other species, many of which won't make it through either. But I also feel we have no choice but blind faith in a positive future otherwise we'd all just top ourselves now. We have to do what we can, to give others a chance to survive. I have no children and no real interest I guess in seeing this species survive, too many flaws. But I feel for the other critters and think we should provide what shelter and help we can, to see as many other species through as possible. I try not to think too much about the longer future, it fuels depression. I keep working to my goals and putting one step after the other and hope that life will triumph in the end.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Well if we are lucky we might get a small sea level rise (say 5 to 10m) fairly soon & ppl might wake up to themselves. But then we may not till after we cross the tipping point for a methane hydrate thaw (15°C at sea flaw) at which point we can all bend over & kiss our bums goodbye. On the up side like the aftermath of the Permian mass extinction event all sorts of new critter & plants are likely to pop up, unfortunately its doubtfull our species will get to see any of them. Big business has far to much invested to let a few crackpots upstet their botomline so its business as usual for the moment. Eitherway only time will tell.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Some have already fallen to it and every year more will. It won't be an overnight thing. Entropy takes time. Even if the warming stopped right now, we'd still be drinking toxic water, breathing toxic air, starving to death. We just didn't learn in time, we stopped growing. Until we drop, we still have our purpose, the shame is, most people don't know what thier purpose is. :axe: (Dick Cheney will probably be bummed when he finds out Mother Nature don't kiss no ass, she won't be bribed and all the puppet think tanks in the world won't out smart her.)
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Thanks everyone for 6 great posts ! I will attempt to answer them tomorrow but I feel better knowing I am not the only one :wink: frosty
Re: Can we survive Climate Change We might be more interested if you were talking about something in terms commonly used. Nobody speaks of "methane clathrates", but rather "methane hydrates". You are confusing powerlessness with complacency. There isn't anything I can do as an individual beyond accounting for my carbon spending, spreading the ideas about how to reduce it, and writing each season to my federal and state MPs and local councillors. Panic and doomerism is not helpful. Quiet action in our households combined with political action is all we can do.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change I think Frosty was expressing feelings, not a blueprint for action. I empathise with Frosty because it's how I feel too, but I still take what actions I can. The actions help to dissipate the depressed feeling as well as being actually useful, but sometimes it's good to just acknowledge and express how we feel, otherwise we can end up adding other feelings to the mix, those of being silent and isolated.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change First I wanted to say that I am not really depressed just frustrated and we are doing as much as possible to be carbon neutral and self sufficient. We have 3.4ha and grow as much as possible of our own food, and fodder trees and perennials for our animals. We have planted over 200 trees. We keep goats for milk and eventually when things get really tough hope we can eat some – we also have chooks and ducks and are working on putting in fish ponds. We have a 2.5kw grid feed solar system that produces around twice as much power as we use. We have rainwater tanks that totally supply our house water as long as we keep getting rain. However here in dry sandy WA it is impossible to supply enough rainwater for the garden and trees so we have a bore and a solar pumping system. We also minimise water use as much as possible and reuse all our greywater. Our big problem is that we are so far just unable to grow all we need and have to travel to Perth to buy food etc. This is a round trip of 250km – we used to go fortnightly but are working on monthly then even longer. Bazman I totally agree that population reduction on a massive scale is the major hope as a solution but until people start dying of starvation etc it certainly wont happen. Population reduction in Australia ( having no more than 2 children ) or USA is a taboo subject, yet as the largest carbon emitters we should start first. Say that to a group of Australians and you are the most likely one to reduce the population by them lynching you. Selfishness rules. BTW we don’t have children. We can always hope PO will help but I think it is too late and before oil actually runs out altogether the rich will keep driving and the companies will keep putting out Co2. Emissions trading is better than nothing but is still basically just permits to pollute available for sale. Permasculptor I agree we all do need to just do what we can personally but the problem is if everyone doesn’t do their bit our efforts will not change the outcome except that we will know WE tried. How do we convince the ignorant masses. Luisa I too fell for the other species and like you want to help them as much as possible. Shortly we keep hoping for sea rise or something to wake people up but as you say big business wont let us interfere with their profits - there will continue to be ”studies” funded by vested interested and well publicised by the corporate media to convince the masses all is well just keep consuming ! Ojo I am well aware we have been breathing toxic air for quite some time I suffer from DNA damage due to toxic chemical exposure. We are often referred to the canaries as in the coal mine. Mankind has well and truly cacked in our nest in so many ways - that axe wielding gif reflects exactly how I feel sometimes Thanks everyone will finish later .......I cant type much at a time ........aslander you post needs a long reply frosty
Re: Can we survive Climate Change This is a question that probably enters a few minds. ______________________________________________ The question that always comes to my mind when I observe the behavior of our elite *leaders* is, “Are they just totally out of touch with reality because they are so lost in obsolete belief-systems, or, do they know exactly what is going on and have some sort of plan that provides for a survival of the global elites - themselves - in the coming global catastrophe and is based upon the deliberate sacraficing and die-back of billions of human beings, and that they have already factored this die-back into their plans?” Anyone? a comment from https://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/10/10248/ especially when they see things like arctic seed vaults owned by monsanto and the refusal of the first world nations to send aids drugs to Africa and poor counties. They've got all those puppet think tanks, you think they haven't come up with a plan? You think you're a member?
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Because, it bears repeating again and again and again, responses based purely on localism and scaling-back can't save us now. We need to remake our material civilization. If we don't do that, no amount of community preparation or personal bunker-building is going to save our bacon. If we don't avoid the tipping points, we're headed into an atmospheric singularity, which will likely involve cascading systems failures and a total inability to meaningfully plan our own lives. Resilience is a great strategy for making sure our communities are capable of withstanding the bumps we're facing in order to keep generating solutions which can be used to avoid the crash; but if the crash comes, individuals and local communities are not going to be in any position to weather it through their own actions, no matter what they do. https://www.worldchanging.com/archives/008178.html real apocalypses are sordid, banal, insane. If things do come unraveled, they present not a golden opportunity for lone wolves and well-armed geeks, but a reality of babies with diarrhea, of bugs and weird weather and dust everywhere, of never enough to eat, of famine and starving, hollow-eyed people, of drunken soldiers full of boredom and self-hate, of random murder and rape and wars which accomplish nothing, of many fine things lost for no reason and nothing of any value gained. And survivalists, if they actually manage to avoid becoming the prey of larger groups, sitting bitter and cold and hungry and paranoid, watching their supplies run low and wishing they had a clean bed and some friends. Of all the lies we tell ourselves, this is the biggest: that there is any world worth living in that involves the breakdown of society. I have to wonder if maybe we don't deserve whatever's coming. Maybe we care too little, are too willingly bribed to blindness with manufactured dreams. Maybe we just don't have it in us anymore to bear the weight of what we'd created. https://www.worldchanging.com/archives//001413.html
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Right on Ojo. Sometimes what you write is a bit beyond me, but that was so right on. The hard part about all that is that its far easier to visualize a small community getting its shit together and becoming self sufficient - or the lone survivor reverting back to the hunter gatherer days. Picturing how we can stop entire countries, global corporations, and six billion people from continuing to do what they already are doing just does my head in, and scares the shit out of me. Also what you said about the guys in power, wondering if they're oblivious or scheming. I'm pretty sure if its obvious to us, its even more obvious to them as they deal with things on the macro/international scale constantly, and they're science is about ten years or so ahead of whats released into the public realm. I'm really trying to resist looking like a paranoid doom merchant here, but it reminds me of all those sci-fi scenarios where the planet is dying and a select group of elite people build a space ship and head off the planet and leave the rest to burn. This is too complicated and glamorous, it makes a good novel but its not very realistic. I think its far more feasible to have a virus manufactured with an antidote. You immunize 10,000 or so of your buddies and make sure theres a 10-1 ratio of hot chicks to fat old money men, then you release the virus to clean up the world. Problem solved. No more global warming, no more over population. From the sound of it theres a few people even in this discussion who would consider doing it, if they thought it would save the world and protect species, and the science is there to do it. Happy thought for the day! So when you look at it like that perhaps that bunker building lone survivalist community blowing up bridges at the first sign of trouble scenario isn't so stupid. It all depends where you perceive the threat coming from, and it gives you something fun to do while you wait...
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Hi aslanded your post says many things that I could have written myself 8) YES YES YES !!!!!!! but try and tell most aussies and they get angry !!!!! the excuses are endless but somehow if the planet is to survive we have to take responsibility for our actions. we had fair working conditions once but I believe what eroded them was Howards wanting to turn us into a copy of the USA. and of course thr USA lso invented outsourcing to other countries who could use "slave" labour and make things cheaper Our environmental policy has always been inadequate - in some ways we are more aware now but in some other ways we are now more inclined to rationalisation for th sake of greed. we are seeing house prices drop now and I believe it will be the beginning of the collapse of the debt based banking system. We have already withdrawn most of hubbys super and put it into solar as I see banks collapses coming very soon. Just keep dithering on whether to spend the little bit left or keep some in case ........... and then what is our next most urgent need house prices dont effect us as we have our bit of land and own it outright https://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/11/1215658130103.html an article that highlights the denial and stupidity this is good news I am hoping the crunch will come first in the USA I know that may sound callous but it is the only hope we have of stopping the us from destroying the world with their military - not that they havent already destroyed a large part of it already I can accept that it is possible china may be more environmentally responsible than the west after all they are a much older civilisation. I read somewhere they are commited to higher ercentage of renewabl energy that we are yet our media continue to demonise them - as usual western society needs someone else to blame :axe: hubby and I discuss this often - in some ways it is a pity Howard didnt stay in govt to face the consequences of the mess he made - but then if he was we would be in worse trouble :twisted: We need a Greens govt but then the ignorant masses would only blame us :lol: frosty
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Ojo and aslanded if you doubt that the elites have a plan for selective survival google depopulation the wars in Kosova and both Iraq wars plus Afgnistan were as much about depopulation as resources etc and the tool is depleted uranium. Lauren Moret has some very frightening theories and I believe she is probably right frosty
Re: Can we survive Climate Change That article is so frustrating. At 5% growth we will be using double the amount of coal in about 16 years.
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Its way too nice outside to be in here glooming it up, but you are right Leuren Moret is educated and informed. Unfortunately she makes you sick with the horror of what they are doing with Depleted Uranium. I was much happier when I thought there was a possibility of us being attacked by their killer virus. Now I discover they have been destroying parts of the world and its people with radiation for years... https://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=156079
Re: Can we survive Climate Change Oh, I believe they have a plan, but deliberate selective depopulation isn't the way to go( I don't doubt they'll try it though). The USA doesn't enforce "our" dominance, they enforce corporate/elite dominance. Back in the 80's, John Stockwell, the highest ranking CIA officer to go public, (he wrote "In search of enemies") went on television and told us about the plan to "take over" the world. He said the Belgians and Japanese are the bankers, the US is just the "police" of the world, the cannon fodder if you will, not a very dominent role in my book (they sure don't serve us, we can't even keep them from stealing the office of president) Yeh, without all the secrets and lies humanity would have evolved ALOT farther and I hate to see the criminals get away with their crap. Without openness and truth society was bound to crumble, but greed put it on the fast track. Society should remain, but the governments we have, have to change. Do I think it will happen? Nah, just send them alittle anthrax in a letter and they'll cave like the cowards they are. Politicians probably wouldn't even make good compost. But maybe the aliens will pull our fat out of the fire.... Another explanation had the UFO looking for President Bush at his Crawford ranch, about an hour's drive from Stephenville. https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article. ... ives388534
Re: Can we survive Climate Change I think both aslanded and ojo are right. Apocalypses aren't fun, it won't be pretty. And localism won't work if it stays in just a few isolated pockets. What we really need is a spread of localism-mentality and local action across the globe. But I don't see it happening. What is the alternative? I don't see India or China suddenly going green. And I think the planet is already too close to one or more tipping points for a slow retreat to work. I hope I'm wrong. I'm too scared to think too far ahead. (Or to look up links to depopulation schemes already in the works.) I am not convinced about the elites and their plan to survive. My partner keeps talking about this but where are they going to? The whole planet is under threat. Climate change will follow them wherever they go. There is no utopia on this planet, no place to hide. So are they going into space? I'm inclined to believe in stupidity before conspiracy theories.
