Can we have a sticky on what the ethics and principles of permaculture are please.

Discussion in 'General chat' started by mischief, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Dear mischief

    So glad to learn that you have 'stepped outside of your garden', metaphorically speaking. Yes, permaculture is more than just 'sustainable agriculture', regardless of scale. Permaculture has evolved to encompass every facet of human existence. Hence Holmgren's (2002) compounded definition: permanent culture. And no, this does not mean that it is anthropocentric, rather it serves to remind us that we are just one mere species (albeit a pretty cool one) among the vastness of the universe. 'Scary'? Only at the beginning. Exciting and fulfilling? Definitely. Welcome to Mandala Town.

    Marko
     
  2. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Purplepear,

    You mentioned that we should also do a list of characteristics.....
    What did you mean by that?
     
  3. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    There is garden stuff and lifestyle stuff
    I am working on the permie "giving away" thing. I find it fun and incredibly, surprisingly, liberating

    Having enough is nice too, still have to work on that female shopping gene that i seem to have collected somewhere along the way. (not shoes, clothes, bling, trinkets but stuff just the same)

    When i give up my library of 1000+ plant/herb books you will know i've made it.
    (mmm. . ,.That might take a few extra lifetimes)

    Be the change you want to see in the world?
    Ghandi
     
  4. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I guess I mean "what it looks like" I do not mean old tyres, untidy mulch and lots of weeds but that could be for some. I mean "small holdings" or "intensive" or "water saving devices" ......
     
  5. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Michaelangelica.
    I dont think yiou can too many books if they are knowledge type rather than Mills and Boons.
    Perhaps you are exagerating about the 1000 tho??
    Are there that many ?
    I would love to have a couple o' hundred Herbals etc....

    Purplepear,
    Cant wait to see what you are going to tell us this one.
    I cant do it I'm still learning and havent really got passed the garden gate so to speak.
     
  6. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    MA - can you leave them to me when you die? The books that is.... I'd rather have a new book than a pair of shoes any day.
     
  7. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    So to recap.

    Principles:
    #1
    Observe and interact.

    #2
    Catch and store energy.

    #3
    Obtain a yield.

    #4
    Apply self regulation and accept feedback.

    #5
    Use and value renewable resources and services.

    #6
    Produce no waste.

    #7
    Design from patterns to details.

    #8.
    Intergrate rather than segregate.

    #9
    Use slow and small solutions.

    #10
    Use and value diversity.

    #11
    Use edges and value the marginal.

    #12
    Creatively use and respond to change.

    Ethics:

    1. Care for the Earth.

    2. Care for people.

    3.Fairshare. Share with others. Return excess to the Earth and people.

    4.Life ethic. View all living things as not only a means but an ends.
     
  8. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Decorative food plants, inovative reuse of materials, windbreaks, sun traps.
     
  9. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    When Geoff Lawton spoke recently at the Perm Noosa meeting he pointed out that ethics is what sets permaculture apart. Organic gardening tells you what not to use but gives no framework for how to do it. He gave an example of an organic farm in the USA that is using illegal immigrants paid poverty wages to hand weed carrot crops. They are irrigating by pumping continuously from the aquifer in a dry valley. When it runs out and the soil is too saline to use they'll simply go elsewhere and do it again. That's organic - but it isn't permaculture....
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Actually it's not organic, it's how organic has been co-opted by agribusiness and as such is a salient lesson for permaculture.

    I take your point about what Lawton is saying. I'm just not sure what will happen when pc becomes mainstream enough that the greedy bastards want too use the name and concept to make shit loads of money. Maybe pc will be more robust and less corruptible.
     
  11. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Thats probably up to people like us to stand up for it and make it well known that hijacking will not be allowed.
     
  12. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    I told you i like shopping
    The sad thing is that many are still in boxes since my move.
    You are welcome to come and spend a month or two sorting them for me.

    I had to complain at the op shop the other day
    I listened to an amazing show on Late night Live yesterday on the Australian Aboriginals' way of seeing the world.
    For the first time, I began to get some inkling of the way they see the world.
    If you are looking for permaculture ethics, sans much farming, here it is.
    ISTM they have been right all along and we have been wrong, now it is too late to save the planet from destruction; while they lived in complete harmony with it for countless millenia. The most successful race of people on earth.
    I have ordered the book for my daughter's birthday.(oops another purchase of stuff!)
    https://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
    https://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2972434.htm
     
  13. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Two years on (almost) and the I've learnt how easy it is to pay lip service to ideas and concepts and not fully achieve what you(I) intended to do.
    Quite an eye opener.

    I've learnt that I tend not to just observe but then to follow this with making an assumption and sometimes quite incorrectly.

    Sometimes its hard to know if I'm applying self regulation as in not doing something just to see what will unfold or am I just being plain lazy.

    I still have trouble recognising exactly what renewable resources and services are available locally.Must have a blind spot on this one.

    Realised that, this year, we are probably trying to work on #8 Intergrate rather than segregate as a specific task and didnt notice that til just now.
    Need to up the observation factor.

    Then theres that nasty habit of reactively responding to change and using way too much energy doing it.
     
  14. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I was just reading a link from the PRI news page - the Gaiacraft workbook. Where did this 4th ethic the 'transitional ethic' come from?

    It doesn't sound like an ethic to me.
     
  15. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    What is transitional ethic?
    ......Something you do while moving from one state to another?
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    That's the problem I am facing. On the one hand I can drop everything I am doing, and move someplace "safer," and have been told to by a Permaculture instructor. However, if I do not do this Permaculture farm where I am, the hardest possible property in the area (North latitude, north slope, in the roaring 40's on the coast) then no one will, and to add to this, if the future earth changes remotely hold true, then where I live will become an island at worst, & peninsula at best... ..and someone is going to need to help the stranded people survive here if it happens.

    It is very easy when dealing with ethics, and / or permaculture in general to turn a blind eye every once in a while & cut a corner to make something easier for ourselves & / or others. It takes moral fiber and conviction however to constantly do what is right & just even when it can be perceived to be a luxury.

    Permaculture, and its ethics are about more then just the individual properties we all have, its deeper then that, It's a corner stone on a healthier way to live that takes "Mitakuye Oyasin" into account.







    Edit - Mitakuye Oyasin translation - All my relations.
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I thought it referred to sharing marijuana. /shrug
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    It doesn't sound like one to me either. It sounds like bullshit to justify use of Industruialization. Here is what I found, and I am rather unhappy over it. I would rather have marijuana involved, something like bring enough for everyone. ;)


    Source: https://www.greenlivingtips.com/articles/259/1/Transitional-ethics.html

    I can't support the above as an "ethic," it's not part of the PDM, or my PDC training. I understand my PDC training will evolve over time as will Permaculture, but this is just more unneeded complexities for the sake of attempting to get people to do the right thing.





    Edit#8723490 - I am downloading the gaiacraft book to read its definition of this new ethic, but as you can tell, I am displeased already.
     
  19. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Hmm, well, here it is direct from the book:


    I do not care for this rationalization and do not regard it as an ethic, but rather as a glaring fallacy. Claiming that this "transition" thing is an ethic in itself is non sequiter. People have to make these decisions and there is no reason for an ethic evolving around it. This fallacy opens up the mis-justificitation for the use of chemicals, as well as things like green sand, & titanium which although naturally occurring (like phosphate) have no place in a Permaculture setting nor can be justified for use in my mind.

    This is the kind of thing championed by "that" American owned forum that has no affiliation with here.
     
  20. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    Looks exactly like justification/rationalization to me, by someone who doesn't want to admit they would rather not live in a mud hut/chickee/wigwam with no modern conveniences. They might even commute to a job!
     

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