Can we have a sticky on what the ethics and principles of permaculture are please.

Discussion in 'General chat' started by mischief, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    I wanted to refresh my understanding of the principles and ethics of permaculture but could not find my book!!!

    When I tried to look it up using the search function I found alot of things but not that.

    I think its abit odd that I cant access the thing that, to me anyway, differentiates permaculture from other organic food/ growing movements and wondered if we could have a sticky on this that just lays out what the ethics and principles are.

    I know they can be found by googling them but would like to 'stay home' so to speak.

    Old hands probably know them off by heart, but I dont and sometimes I like to refer back to them either to remind myself of these or to see if I can improve of what I am doing ..or how well an idea I have might fit in/or not.

    I dont know if by doing this it would violate copyright or not tho.
     
  2. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Lets risk the copy right thing and do it.
    I will start with the ethic which is :- care for the earth, care for people, return excess to earth and people. and popular addition is live with a culture of sufficiency.
    We should also build a list of characteristics as well.
    But thats enough from me let someone else have a go.
     
  3. sbrokvam

    sbrokvam Junior Member

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    I found a useful website for this kind of thing, https://permacultureprinciples.com/ by David Holmgren. I actually got a clean, nice-looking wallpaper with the principles for my computer desktop.

    Ståle
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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  5. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Thread is "stickied"!!
     
  6. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I think it would be nice for members to contribute.
    1. Observe and Interact. Observation is a key to learning from Nature and in contributing constructively to your community.
     
  7. sbrokvam

    sbrokvam Junior Member

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    You're right - easywhois.com says the website registrant is Richard Telford. Richard is also the guy who did the principle icons in Holmgren's "Permaculture Principles & Pathways Beyond Sustainability".

    BTW, re: that book - when I first became interested in permaculture a few years ago, and heard an interview with Holmgren, this was the first book I bought. I must admit I had rather a hard time of it and was waiting impatiently for the concrete explanations of exactly what permaculture IS. I didn't make it past chapter three, I think. Having since learnt a thing or two about PC from the Designer's manual and Toby Hemenway's book, going back to Holmgren's book I now find it infinitely more valuable on second reading.
     
  8. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    there has never been consensus on 'people care'

    hang on,,,this 'care for people' thing is a latecomer which the jury is still out on.

    "earth care, which is care for the planet and its systems".....
    which could quite easily have a 'no people focus'...

    Mollison confessed to being driven by hate,,,,hate for people, as distinct from nature and the planet.

    ,,,i am a hermit/recluse and can assure the universe, i do not practise permaculture for 'people',,,,the only people i care for are my own.

    i detest 'people' and i love permaculture....

    i find pedestrian 'meanings' with broad general appeal do not serve permaculture but to bring permaculture to the lounge room of the masses, which then turn it into just another mechanism to drive consumption....

    it becomes this gardening thing, organic and something to do with herbs.....

    so the ethics of permaculture are not going to be 'easy'.....

    consider the historical schism trail...

    the "Transition Movement",,,,,one of many permaculture schisms.
    and dare i say it " quite healthy ".....in fact i would suggest it is the avante garde of a brand of permaculture that bent the right way....rational self interest...

    rational self interest is definitely not 'people care'.....that would be a bit of an altruistic stretch.

    rational self interest promotes the logic of an enlightened approach to systems design....

    Permaculture, an earth science rich in theory and practical; itself is a system of design, for the design of systems.

    people care....bah!.

    i'm not fighting for love, tis only hate.
    regards,
    kimbo
     
  9. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Keep Chat Permaculture Free - Secular Chat -

    and for this we need a sticky in chat?....
    take that permaculture stuff and stick it where it goes,,,,the permaculture forum,,,
    not the ' connecting with people sub forum ' where those of us who are here......clearly aren't about the book, or the look else we'd be there?

    permaculture is boring, it is gardening australia, it is the grandmother,,,,
    it takes up lots of space all over this forum,,,,
    so why do you want it in chat?

    in chat, i would like to go 'wider',,,,that is just me,,,
    but i confine my shit to chat and fear being displaced into less apropriate areas,,,,

    it is about habitat,,,it is about diversity,,,i am in the Re-Wilder, engage in social disobedience, get out and throw rocks fom a safe distance camp,,,we are a faction ( there is more than one of us)......'Chat' is our box....
    it would be cluttered with talk from the book...

    keep the text in the text,,,,viva liberty!,,,,viva 'chat'.

    dam, i'm just about tempted to do a survey,,,,some other sucker can,,,,
    hello mark, mate...survey?

    regards,
    kimbo
     
  10. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Lol Kimbo. If nothing else the "stickied" topic has elicited more thought provoking ideas from you. That in itself is worth it!

    So I'd like to throw out two ideas in response:

    1) My own personal definition of Permaculture that I feel goes a little beyond the above. That is: "Permaculture is living in concert with the Earth instead of in conflict with the Earth." To me, this says it all .... it is my underlying principle upon which I can base my choices for life. To me, all of the above ethics and principles are merely subsets of this one idea, clarifications if you will.

    2) Hatred. What is hatred exactly? IMHO hatred is an merely an emotion, an unresolved form of anger. For after all, isn't hatred born of repeated anger at something or someone, anger that we can't see past? If so, then hatred is perhaps the MOST limiting emotion to our perspectives ... hatred focuses our view on the cause of our anger. Basing our life's choices on anger or hatred is saying that we'll let our emotions rule our actions. I, for one, use my emotional states as indication that there is some situation that needs attention from my higher self. When I can (and I'm not perfect in this or anything else) I pay attention to my angry feelings without letting them take over. Only by refusing to be ruled by these emotions can I examine the cause(s) and come to understanding.

    So, why would we hate people in general? Most likely because we are frustrated at their behaviors ... behaviors that are in conflict with our own ideas and ideals. We can attribute all sorts of reasons for this: stupidity, ignorance, conceit, arrogance, selfishness, greed ... However, what does this hatred do FOR us??? It causes us to walk around with this little ball of red-hot disturbance in our guts, all because "other people" don't act in compliance with our ideas of how they "should" act! The little ball of hatred takes away our ability to see anything but the cause for our feeling this way. And we're right back to the question, "Do we really want to let our emotions run our lives??"

    Thoughts?

    = )
    Bill
     
  11. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Probably a good idea to move it to the other section, I did think it was more suitable here being a thought/idea post rather than a doing post.

    I was hoping that some of the old hands might help with this using examples of their own journey for the examples.

    The next principle is : to Catch and store energy.
    Work out and put in place a system that catches and store resources and energy so that it can be used when needed and using nature to do the work minimizing the need for human input.
    Examples I can see of this are using tanks or dams to catch and store rain water, compost piles made from natures resources placed right where they will be needed.
     
  12. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    One of the best ways to catch and store energy would have to be growing trees wouldn't it? and Seeds (I think of them as intelligent energy stores)
     
  13. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Yes !!! Saving seeds I didnt even notice that one!
    Trees are abit tricky if you dont have alot of space I think abit more care would be needed in choosing the right one and the right place for them.
    From bitter experience they dont always survive being moved if you put them in the wrong spot.
     
  14. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    #3 Obtain a yield.

    Makes sense really, make sure what you are doing is producing results and you are getting something back for your efforts.
    Next?
     
  15. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    On the ethics side, I recently read a forth one that went

    Life ethic.
    View all living things as not only a means but an ends.

    Sometimes I think we take too much for granted and sometimes need to stop and See the flowers not just smell them ( for example)
     
  16. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    9andalf....are you an angler?

    good bait.

    i'd say you have it pegged bill,

    hatred = chronic anger
    if it is chronic then it probably is something 'we can't see past' ( perhaps something we can't forgive)

    a limiting emotion?? mmm....i would counter that hate sits alongside passion,,,molly confessed the motive of hate...therefore i extrapolate;;
    permaculture was something very unlimiting that evolved from hate.

    therefore i reject that 'hate' ( chronic unresolved anger ) is inherently negative.
    i do realise that it is inherently unhealthy for body and mind and soul....

    that i engage in it with a generosity of spirit is merely testimony to my permie passion, this in turn is comprised of equal measures of martyr and dickhead.....i sacrifice, and i maintain anger at those who don't.

    it does sit like a bit of a smouldering ember, but thanks to the wonders of natural medicine;
    we get by 'B', pissed off but determined...

    contrast that with the great herd of unthinking dolts that do the whole consumer plunderer thing and don't bat an eye...don't even think about it....they are not angry, they are not 'hating'....they are all to busy getting comfy....

    my choice has always been " be comfy or be angry"

    to renounce the comfort of consumption results in the ' dis satisfaction with those who persist and abuse it'.
    if you multiply this dis-satisfaction with people for say 30 years, you enter into the realm of chronic anger and thus hate.

    so we agree.

    The wheel turns, i'm a dam Buddhist and all this hate is something that i could do without....
    i could in a quite rational and selfish way choose to 'not hate'....i could choose to meditate myself into a calm kim,,,,and employ strategies to maintain my calm,,,i could choose to treat anger as the foe.

    i could also be an uncaring prick,,,without the the passion to fart out loud....fortunately for the world; i'm not and i do.

    very loud...

    but; Bill, the way out of the quandary is not for me to get less angry,,,it is for everyone else to get more.
    then,i can get less.

    what pisses me right off is all the comfortable people,,,there is a shortage of 'anger' amongst the comfortable.

    there is no shortage of anger (hate, if chronic) amongst the uncomfortable.

    in fact i am on solid ground here ( i can feel the change),,,the uncomfortable have the anger, the comfortable are serenely fucking the planet or there fellow man or whales etc.

    "join us kim, get more comfy, don't be so angry man, life is too short and you'll die early and everyone will think good ridance to that prick..."

    i know bill,,,it breaks my heart,,,i shit you not....

    do you know of Howard Beale ( 70's movie Network, played by peter finch)...howard was mad, mad as hell.

    howard gave me the last bit of free rein i needed to let go of any further pretence,,,
    present company excluded,
    i don't like people bill, i hate them,,,i hide from them,,,they scare me....

    'oneness' i feel with nature....
    it takes a redeeming circumstance for me to get past the hate for humans.

    suffering will do it,,,the underdog,,,the battler,,,the downtrodden,,,the street people,,the homeless.
    this ilk, i do not hate....children,,,refuges,,,the hungry the cold etc. (you get it)
    in fact i bubble over with compassion and 'an urge to hold them up'. to take their pain a bit, to lend a hand because they need me........that is all it takes to ground me to unconditional love,,,,the only condition being,,,that the human suffers,,,,
    suffer and i love you,,,comfortable and i hate you.

    now i don't expect to be canonised for this shit any time soon;
    but bill,,, as (you're) an intellectual with heart,,,
    you could see how society might evolve 'specimens' within the species as a response to precisely the environmental stimuli that has been on me since i was an adult.

    so i am a product of the system,,,perhaps those like me are an evolutionary dead end,,,needed only at a time in human evolution when there was a whole lot of comfort fucking the planet and not enough angry pricks getting in the road.


    bill, you are more enlightened than i ( i sense this :) ),,,so i look to you for sage understanding....

    man.
    cheers,
    kimbo

    ps there are heaps of us angry permaculture bastards who if we see you doing bad shit,,,
    "we'll slash your tyres man".

    most of them have more good sense than to admit to it.

    i'd like to say; ' hey shit i am just their spokesman,,,and they want 'chat' back,,,or else';)

    but no, just the odd angry me....i speak for no one, but i have to believe they exist...

    if you are listening to this....you are the resistance!




    (chortle)
     
  17. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    I visited a "permaculture garden" once that was fabulous - with swales and all sorts of fruit trees and high yields that went to feed chickens but mostly fell to the ground and rotted. I think we need to look for ways to get these yields to the consumers so good food is available to people.
     
  18. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Brings to mind another principle:

    Produce no waste.

    Sounds pretty simple at first but like alot of things there is more to it.

    What may have been pretty radical in the 70's we tend to do more of this without really thinking about it.
    Recycle and reuse things rather than tossing them.My grand parents always did this so it isnt all that mind shattering to me, you just follow suit.

    Cd's and dvds can be used in the garden, they are reflective and birds dont really like mobiles made of them.

    Some of my garden stakes are from my old clothes line,I have been meaning to put them in a row and run string thru the loops the lines used to run thru and plant out some peas but I forot.

    Planting out just what you need to feed all the lifeforms you are supporting means there is no waste.
    Then again it really depends on your definition of wastefulness.
    To some, letting things fall to the ground and rot may be seen as feeding the soil lifestock.
     
  19. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    'Use small and slow solutions'

    Slowly getting something put into place and consolidating each part as you get it to where you want it is something I learnt the hard way a while ago...not in doing this permaculture garden but the reno's on my house.
    It definitely works much better if you work out what you want to acheive and then slowly put it into place.
    Doing this also makes it easier to see if there is a problem that needs to be addressed before you get too far ahead.
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day All

    Concerning ethics:

    Ethics act as constraints on survival instincts and the other personal and social constructs of self-interest that tend to drive human behaviour in any society. They are culturally evolved mechanisms for more enlightened self-interest, a more inclusive view of who and what constitutes "us", and a longer-term understanding of good and bad outcomes.

    The greater the power of human civilisation (due to energy availability), and the greater the concentration and scale of power within society, the more critical ethics become in ensuring long-term cultural and even biological survival. This ecologically functional view of ethics makes them central in the development of a culture for energy descent.

    Like design principles, ethical principles were not explicitly listed in early permaculture literature. Since the development of the Permaculture Design Course, ethics have generally been covered by three broad maxims or principles:

    Care for the earth (husband soil, forests and water)

    Care for people (look after self, kin and community)

    Fair share (set limits to consumption and reproduction, and redistribute surplus).


    These principles were distilled from research into community ethics, as adopted by older religious cultures and modern cooperative groups. The third principle, and even the second, can be seen as derived from the first.

    The ethical principles have been taught and used as simple and relatively unquestioned ethical foundations for permaculture design within the movement and within the wider "global nation" of like-minded people. More broadly, these principles can be seen as common to all traditional cultures of place, although their conception of "people" may have been more limited than the notion that has emerged in the last two millennia.

    This focus in permaculture on learning from indigenous, tribal and cultures of place is based on the evidence that these cultures have existed in relative balance with their environment, and survived for longer than any of our more recent experiments in civilisation.

    Of course, in our attempt to live an ethical life, we should not ignore the teachings of the great spiritual and philosophical traditions of literate civilisations, or the great thinkers of the scientific enlightenment and since. But in the long transition to a sustainable low-energy culture we need to consider, and attempt to understand, a broader canvas of values and concepts than those delivered to us by recent cultural history.


    Source: David Holmgren (2007) Essence of Permaculture

    Concerning principles: See the above same work by David, or better still, visit the website and click on both 'writings' and 'publictions'.

    Cheerio, Marko.
     

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