Can permaculture feed Australia?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Warm Earth, Sep 5, 2008.

  1. robwolters_nl

    robwolters_nl Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Personally, I do think that permaculture could feed Australia but everyone has to be on board for it to work. That's where the problem lies. Firstly, the large corporate satans of this world such as Monsanto, Bayers, Cargyle etc. will do their utmost not too lose any grip that they have on their markets. They want control and wouldn't give it up easily.

    Secondly, a large percentage of people these days are lazy and want everything quick and easy. It would be interesting to see what percentage of people still cook (or can cook). I'll bet there are quite a few families that rely on the "McCains tv meals" etc. This group will be the ones where the problem has to smack them in the face before they realize (probably too late).

    Anyway, for those in Australia, this is an interesting book by John Archer about the water crisis that can be downloaded - https://www.johnarcher.com.au/water_crisis2002.pdf.
     
  2. Tamara

    Tamara Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Realistic? Of course we can feed Australia. Water isn't a problem, it falls, but we don't use it. Swales are the way.

    Watch greening the desert!

    Tamara
     
  3. foggyforge

    foggyforge Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Yes ,the implementation of permaculture principles will feed Australia.
    And the only way the world will be able to feed it self.
    Hope this will be accepted sooner -rather than later .
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    there seems to be a problem,

    this thread shows a post by " shufei5756275" was posted on 2/12/08 but the post doesn't appear, this has happened in a number of threads across the board, i get e/m notification of a new post and then it is not there when i look?

    len
     
  5. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Some farm comparisons:

    NSW, 130 acres PC Turn Over (TO) $16,000 labor costs $70,000 :: a tax write off.
    Five Kms away 160 acres conventional production TO $360,000 labour costs $ 60,000 :: a viable business.

    Vic 149 acres PC total saleable productivity: TO $22,000 labour costs $44,000 :: a tax write off.
    Three kms away 230 acres conventional production TO $950,000.. labour $140,000 :: a viable business.

    For PC to have the impact many wish PC needs to demonstrate some economic self-sustainability as well as environmental sustainability.

    Can someone give an example of an economically self-sustaining PC operation?
     
  6. ant1

    ant1 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Hi Trimnut,

    That's interesting. Where did you get those numbers from? Are they typical conventional farm production costs? Are they the same product?

    Theoretically speaking, its easy to argue a conventional farming operation will be more profitable under todays market with cheap(ish) fertiliser and 50 years of intensive R&D behind those methods, especially when the unsustainable 'costs' arent visible in the product price of the conventional farm.

    Granted tho, PC will never be that good, if only because conventional farming gets something for nothing (at a cost to everything else).

    For an example, Polyface Farm (from the omnivore's dilemma) could probs be classified as PC (although its kind of like Australia claiming Russell Crowe!!) -classified as sustainable at least. I'm sure they're not raking it in but from the book, it was definitely painted as a profitable farm (or I was seriously misled).

    Additionally, most PC farms now are probably not running on a purely economic model but bit more of an ethical one so might not be maximising profits (speculation on my part).

    Good point tho,

    Adam.
     
  7. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Numbers come from my enquiries. I work in the industry. Yes they are conventional figures and products are very similar. I deliberately chose similar operations, similar locations, no discernable difference other than production means.
    To my mind the weakness in your argument is that it does not acknowledge that the underlying farming mindset will not change no matter what circumstances change. Farmers are always seeking a viable means of operation. That is the history of farming. If PC has productive and or viability advantages they would be highly attractive to any farmer . I seek those advantages.

    Thanks for pointing out the Polyface operation. Without a closer look I cannot conclude too much.

    Talking generally (dangerous) I dislike comparisons with US agriculture for a number of reasons. Most US farms are operating at levels of return per production that are far above Australian figures. Somewhere about 40% more "to farm return" as a proportion of end sale price. Look closely at US production and you realise the truth of the saying that Australia has some of the world's most efficient farmers. Culturally American agriculture operates in a different social environment. Both demographically and cultural history has set up US agriculture very differently than Australia. Three points to illustrate: Most US organic operations are able to sell relatively close to the point of production and have a large easy access demographic to ensure an easy sale. Supermarkets are not allowed access to anywhere near the same amount of the demographic as in Australia. American's have a different culture around public honesty and private misdemeanor resulting in a different reaction to breaches of public trust.

    I pose this question, "If the Polyface Farm model is viable can we find a similar example in Australia?" If not why not? There is much about PC that is attractive to me, however I can have little faith based on its performance.
     
  8. JoanVL

    JoanVL Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    There is a town on the Yorkshire side of the Lancashire/Yorkshire border that is trying, and potentially succeeding, to be self-sufficient. Here is the link:

    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/features ... 4795855.jp

    This is a successful, serious, plan of action that is actually working, in using all the space, expertise, and enthusiasm that is all around in society, to grow food locally, for locals, including eggs, meat, and even a planned fish farm, as well as fruit herbs and veggies.
     
  9. elmejor

    elmejor Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    [​IMG]
    i have seen a documentary on this, in a channel, and where exactly this is located, must be a good place to visit and study!
     
  10. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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  11. shortly

    shortly Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Personally, I do think that permaculture could feed Australia, with a bit of decentralization; unless corprate interests can find a way to prevent or at least restrict ppl growing their own.
    I doubt the likes of Coles, Woolies & Monsanto will just roll over & give in if permaculture becomes common place, the effect on their bottom line could be devastating.
    Even here they lobby governments to get "a better outcome for all" (ie. their share holders.)
    By growing our own we are eating into THEIR profits after all.
    This has a very real potential to restrict permaculture activies, ( we are only protecting you).
    A bit of a slog i know but worth reading, be sure not to miss points 60, 6 & 26.
    Be very interesting to see just how far the Gov. thinks it can go with this?

    https://daff.gov.au/about/publications/q ... y-response
     
  12. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    A Vegetarian could be self sufficient in a one bedroom skyrise apartment if they wanted to. Except for buying/bartering seed as collecting it probably wouldn't be practical in that situation.

    We need to focus on thinking outside the box and gardening inside it.
     
  13. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Please show me how. How are you producing your energy dense food stuffs?

    Please show me one permaculture operation which has productivity similar to a small mixed farm.
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Composting Toilet...
    Worm Farm...
    Plastic tubs...
    Balcony would be handy, but i've seen it done without one...
    Silverbeet, Rhubarb, Various lettuces, Tomatoes, etc, all do well in containers...

    I have to head off to work, but i'll find some pictures and post later today... if i forget give the post a bump after christmas and i'll get on it.
     
  15. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Thanks "milifestyle" for your reply. I look forward to the pictures. Firstly there is no energy dense foods amongst those you have listed.
    A simple way to make my point is: "How do you grow your breakfast cereal?"
    A definitive way to make my point is to ask you to do a calorie count of your current diet.
    Then I will ask: "Where will the majority of your calories come from within your proposed system?"

    A simple energy dense food is potatoes. The usual estimate is about three quarters of an acre to provide base line requirement for two people for a year. A big apartment for just part of your diet.
     
  16. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    A quick search found a few... https://images.google.com/images?sourcei ... a=N&tab=wi

    Potatoes grow extremely well in styro boxes with lucerne or oaten chaff (mixed with vermicast). I swapped half a dozen lettuces for a bag of Lucerne Chaff just yesterday.

    Wheat Grass is high in Nutritional content and can grow well on the kitchen bench.
     
  17. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Potatoes do well in the systems you describe. Just not enough to even look like providing base line energy supplies unless you grow at least three quarters of an acre.
    Wheat grass is high in nutrient content as you correctly describe but very low in calories. The problem as I understand it isn't nutrients but supplying calorie requirement. I know of no small scale scenario like you describe which can produce the calorie requirement we would need just to survive.

    As I asked before: "Where do you grow your breakfast cereal ?"
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    The "Cereal" you are describing is not an ideal basis for food for starters... no seed food is. Wheat grass yes because it is chlorophyl based. Many say a high carbohydrate diet is largely responsible for the obesity epidemic.

    One only needs to consume their body weight (lbs) x (times) 11 in any day for sufficient energy to maintain their fitness level.
     
  19. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Thanks for your reply. I suspect a mistake in your calculation for sufficient energy for daily requirement. Using your formula I would be eating rather more than I ever have in one day. An impossible amount as I read it.

    Happy to lay aside the cereal analogy. I used that description in my initial post as a simple example to get my point across.

    Let me pose the issue directly:

    "What is your daily calorie requirement?"

    "
    How are you able to produce your daily food requirement by food production in an apartment?"

    Do the calculation and then tell me how you can produce that within an apartment. I am happy to consider it when you show me how it is possible.
     
  20. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Can permaculture feed Australia?

    Are you familiar with the term "barter".

    Basically it means, I'll give you one of MY "lettuces" if you give me a dozen of YOUR "free range eggs".

    Similarly one could say... I'll knit your kids a jumper/sweater each (3) if you'll give me enough wool to knit 10. Then you would have enough wool to knit more stuff to exchange with the larger permaculturalist 2 kms down the road for corn, carrots & extra potatoes.

    While we are on the subject.... if there is any PC's in NW Tasmania looking for regular or large scale Horticultural consultnacy i'd be happy to exchange a side of beef or pork in exchange for my services

    I can also do basic html Websites and willing to exchange similar services for same... :wink:

    EDIT: I require [187.221 (lbs) x 11] = 2059 Calories per day to maintain my current weight.
     

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