Bloody cats!!!!

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by PDB, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. PDB

    PDB Junior Member

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    Hi Paula
    I agree lots of people love there cats and thats great. You sound like an Responsible owner theres not many of them around here. I don't blame the cats it's in there nature.
     
  2. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I'm another cat person. I have to say it's completely ridiculous to expect people to restrict cats they live with to their own property. If you live in an area where it's legal to own cats then you have to live with the cats in your area.

    Feral cats are a different story, and while I doubt I could kill a feral cat myself I have no problem with them being controlled in the same way that rabbits, possums, rats etc are (i.e in ways that are humane and environmentally sound).


    Paula, I agree that cat owners have a big responsibility, that cats need to be neutered, and shouldn't live near native ecosystems. I disagree about keeping them in at night though - the trade-off, IMO, of cats eating natives species is that they also eat rats and mice. Very few people are willing to trap rats, so they use poison instead. I think cats that can hunt are a much better option.
     
  3. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    a cat off the verandah is feral in my book. This includes the ones who have somehow grown a leather thing around their neck.

    Some people may have heard the the myth that asprin kills cats. It is not true, one particularly sucessful cat-catching type that I know tried escalating doses over a number of days, with no obvious effects.

    A well built cat trap with a nice sensitive trigger will provide a suprising yield in cat fertiliser. Doing "his bit" for the Australian bush, the friend I mentioned even takes a cat trap with him on holidays. :)
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Yes, I know that some people have a great antipathy towards cats. But calling a domestic pet cat feral just because you don't like it blurs the boundaries between differences which is hardly conducive to good permaculture practice.
     
  5. Duckpond

    Duckpond Junior Member

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    Why??

    I choose to keep free range ducks in my garden, it is legal, but i must be very careful as local pet cats come into my garden and attack them. Why must i accept that someone elses choice of pet can come and try to kill my pets?

    By the same logic if it is legal to keep attack dogs in an area, and one bites you, you should accept that as fine?

    I used to keep bees for honey, and had discussed with my neighbour the situation. He was fine with it. When he moved out and we got new neighbours I asked them if they had a problem with me keeping bees. They said that their childeren played in the garden, and had been stung since moving in so i got rid of my bees. I could not contain then so i had to lose them.

    I think the same should go for cats and any cat inside my fenceline is fair game
     
  6. pete152

    pete152 Junior Member

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    Yes I agree,cats should be contained especial y at night so as not to attack native animals.

    And also other peoples right to enjoy their pets in their own yard. What is the difference between dog owners having to keep their animal constrained in their properties and cat owners?

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  7. arawajo

    arawajo Junior Member

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    If you move to acreage away from close neighbours you can have bees and ducks and roosters all free range! If you choose to live in an area of high density housing you need to keep all your animal friends locked up just as the humans are locked up.
     
  8. Permibeginner

    Permibeginner Junior Member

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    In WA call your local ranger/shire.They will have cat traps you can borrow.
    Different locals will of course have different policies.
     
  9. pete152

    pete152 Junior Member

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    Yes and most local councils have traps that you can hire.
    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  10. Permibeginner

    Permibeginner Junior Member

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    being an ex vetnurse I thought I would enter into teh cat debate.
    My personal belief is if you choose to ahve a cat it is safer for all to keep it inside.

    Now there are very few cats that would be comfortable to remain inside without a cat run that can keep them protected and comfortable by accessing the outside but for their own safety and your hip pocket it is far the best thing.

    Besides the issues of catching the wildlife, killing other peoples pets and wreaking others gardens cats risk serious health problems. Any owner who has had their cat suffer a cat fight abcess can tell you how expensive te vet bills are for a relatively small one.I have seen cats die from abcesses.

    Then there is the risk of Feline leukemia and feline aids which is so closely related to HIV that vets are recommended to take universal precautions when treating these cats so ensure the disease does not cross the species barrier.

    Then of course there is the human element.I will never forget the couple who bought in their dearly loved cat which had blunt force trauma to the head resulting in such severe brain damage the cat died.This was the second cat they had lost this way. The guy who lived behind them had such a hatred of cats he used to lure them in an hit them on the head with a hammer(He told them how he did it)

    I am amzed by cats. I think they are incredible and amazing but I choose not to have one because I dont like the effect their presence has on the environment and I dont want to spend thousands on a cat avery.
     
  11. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Anyone hear of the Aussie Singer "Kevin Bloody Wilson"

    He has a very nice ditty about the average suburban cat..

    The chorus is very easy to follow and sing along to also 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)



    Tezza
     
  12. elliceh

    elliceh Junior Member

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    You know, if you love cats, fair enough, everyone has their 'thing'. But seriously, the vast majority of cats living in suburbia are not restrained at night, they kill wildlife and small creatures (whether you live near a national park or not). Unfortunately, most of the creatures they torture to death are harmless, defenseless creatures. The cats that live in my area have been seen ripping limbs of several types of lizards, chasing geckos, and hunting possums. Not once have they been seen with a mouse or rat.

    Frankly, the comment that everyone else has to live with the cats in the area (by this i assume you mean putting up with the dirty little paw prints and scratches on our cars, finding little birds we have watched from hatchlings ripped apart and the beautiful native lizards that have died from shock and claw piercings, or finding cat sh!t in our little girls sand pit) is utterly ridiculous. I cant imagine the same amount of tolerance being shown if someones dog came over and did the same. Cats just aren't so special that they should have to be shown such "understanding"by people in a 5km radius of their "home".

    My neighbors cat is on its last chance. It has come over and terrorised our chooks and made them stop laying for several days and left scratch marks on our beloved car which we have worked so hard for. As was said in a previous post, if it's in our backyard its fair game. Our car will get its sweet revenge as it gently rumbles the cat into a permanent sleep.

    Keep the dastardly things inside or contained in a run with some toys. Surely its not that difficult.
     
  13. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    I have 3 cats, they all live inside (as well as the usual - all desexed, etc.) and get let out for their 10 minute run once a day, when I'm out feeding up the other critters. They then get called back inside for their tin of fish and I have little problem with this routine once they are used to it (training a new kitten to the daily routine can be difficult).

    There is no reason why cats can't be kept inside. There is no reason why they can't be confined just like all other animals are. There is a lot of mythology about cats and none of it is true. I have had people tell me it's "not possible" to confine cats. Why not? Can they dematerialise on one side of a wall and rematerialise on the other? Or is there a feline version of "Beam me outside, Scotty"? Nuh. If you can't keep a cat inside, you can't keep a burglar outside. If you can't keep your cat inside, you have bigger things to worry about than keeping the cat in.

    I'm a conservationist and an animal lover. I expect my neighbours animals to be appropriately confined (and also their kids), just as my animals are.

    I just wish more people cared for their kids as well as I care for my cats.

    Luisa
     
  14. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    A really honourable view of keeping cats Luisa.

    I have seen the devestation that cats can do in Australia to birds, small mammals and lizards, however I have also seen the love and affection that they can give to people (eg my elderly Grandfather). I hope there are more responsible owners like you out there.

    I stick to my view that a cat outside the confines of the owners property is a feral and I trust that this would not impact on any responsible owner.

    Really glad to read your post!
     
  15. pete152

    pete152 Junior Member

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    Hello,
    That is great to hear Luisa! If only there were more animal owners like yourself in Australia the native wildlife would be better off!
    Keep up the great work!
    Peter
     
  16. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
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    I think the comparison to bees is far better than the comparison to dogs.

    You can't have 'free range' cats and restrict them in the same way you can't have free range bees and restrict them. Dogs can be trained and/or fenced in, cats and bees can't.

    Having said that I think your example of your bees and the neighbours is a good one - it comes down to the individuals involved and their willingness to be good neighbours to each other and communicate well.

    Myself, if I lived in a neighbourhood and had a cat and someone shifted in next door that hated cats, I would say that that was their problem really.

    btw, I've lived a long time in a semi rural area where most people own cats, and in my area there are very few problems that aren't manageable. The biggest problem I've encountered with pets has been from barking dogs. Don't get me started on irresponsible dog owners ;-)


    I think it's cruel to keep cats inside. And they can't access natural medicines, nor get normal kinds of exercise. Animals need sunshine, fresh air, being in nature. I wouldn't keep a cat permanently inside any more than I would a chook or a rabbit or a sheep. And keeping cats inside prevents them from serving an important function in a permaculture system (rodent control).

    How many people here use rat traps by the way instead of poison? How many people use rat poison?



    Harmless, defenseless creatures? Crikey, that's a fairly naive picture of nature.

    As I already said, I have no problem with control of feral cats. Nor do I have a problem with certain areas being made cat free in order to give native species a better chance.

    Here's the list of predators in NZ that eat lizards: cats, hedgehogs, stoats, rats, ferrets, probably possums. All are introduced. In NZ the only way that humans can control rats is by poison or trapping. Virtually no-one I know uses traps. Cats are a viable way of controlling rat populations in certain situations. If you got rid of all the cats in the neighbourhood I mentioned above, you would have a SERIOUS rat problem. Please tell me how that rat problem would be addressed from a permaculture perspective then.


    This is a permaculture thread folks. You'll never get rid of cats, in the same way that we'll never get rid of stoats or stupid people. Permaculture is about turning problems in useful solutions. If for you that means using excess cats to make compost that is fair enough. But if in the process of doing that you alientate the many people around you who respect and live with cats including your neighbours, or if you are unnecessarily cruel to cats because you hate them, then I think this undermines permaculture practice and principles.

    It seems like there are strong feelings on many sides on this issue. I just think that those strong feelings are getting in the way of working with cats as part of the systems.

    I also think that the more you hate cats the more you are going to have problems with them. Honestly, I've never come across a cat scratching paint on a car, but cats are very contrary and I'm sure there are some cats that are happy to oblige if you piss them off enough.

    The times I have had problems with cats (other people's) I've found ways of working that out because I am more interested in finding creative solutions than hating animals who are just doing what they are naturally made to do.
     
  17. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I just wanted to add, that in the neighbourhood that I mentioned, there are free range chooks and sometimes people have had free-ish range pet rabbits and it's not been the neighbourhood cats that have been the problem.

    If you have a problem cat in your area then you might want to ask yourself why that cat is acting in that way. Telling the neighbour who owns the cat that they should restrict the cat to their own property or you'll kill it is unlikely to produce any useful collaborative solutions.
     
  18. Duckpond

    Duckpond Junior Member

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    That is not constructive or co operative. If it is your cat it is your problem. That attitude of it being their problem for hating cats causes ppl to take drastic action to defend their poultry and the like against cats.

    I do not hate cats for the sake of hating cats, or because i want to be cruel, It is a responseto their actions
     
  19. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    I have successfully controlled a rat problem with both:
    - a couple of rat traps; and
    - a number of containers with a mixture of icing sugar and plaster-of-paris.

    I DO NOT accept the argument, that one pest results in the need for another.

    Pebble, just because there are other animals which are predators, does not make cats better! Perhaps we should eradicate and outlaw keeping the following as pets "cats, hedgehogs, stoats, rats, ferrets" - by the way, possums are not carnivorous.

    "Harmless, defenseless creatures? Crikey, that's a fairly naive picture of nature.".

    Um, pebble you are wrong. NZ has also suffered it's fair share of slaughter (by cats) of native species including a number of ground-dwelling birds.
     
  20. elliceh

    elliceh Junior Member

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    Well you could say that, but if the "problem" manifests itself and the owner gets upset because their cat has "run away" then I'm pretty sure its the owners problem too. Lets just say, as the bad next door neighbour that dislikes cats coming in MY yard to kill MY pets/wildlife, it will be my problem for a shorter amount of time than the owner.
    You could say the same for cattle, sheep, deer and any other caged/farmed animal. They all need enclosures suitable for the particular species. ie you wouldn't see a deer farmer with the same fencing as a cattle farmer. You need to use some common sense. I agree animals should be outside as much as possible... so give them that AND make sure they don't get out. Cat runs are very popular these days, as a mad cat lover I'm surprised you didn't think of this.

    I find the naive people are the cat owners generally. They prefer to keep their head in the sand, refusing to believe that their beloved cats attack, hunt and kill anything but rodents. If only i had taken pictures of the torn bodies of the - and I repeat - harmless, defenseless creatures, maybe you could see the damage they do in normal suburbia let alone in nature reserves. Please tell me how a gecko, baby birds and other lizards are harmful and have useful defense mechanisms. If only they did.

    For starters, I don't "hate" cats. I hate what they do and if the owners cannot keep them contained then i will get rid of them. There are much more useful creatures in the permaculture system that are below the cats food chain. I'll gladly show you the scratches on my paint work. Its interesting you think the cat would have the brains to do this because it is insecurity issues about its reputation with next door neighbour... and yet it cant figure out all its problems would be solved if it just stayed away. If this is the case and its getting some kind of 'do unto others before they do to you' revenge, then i'll gladly oblige and give them something to be vengeful for.
    Same here, the "creative" solution is, in this order: Give the cat a friendly fright and send it on its way, Let the neighbour know what has happened and tell them you would appreciate it if they could keep it contained, If it happens again, tell the neighbour in no uncertain terms that you are serious and you do not want the cat in your yard again, If it still continues then its open game. I would never be cruel to any animal, but sometimes intervention is needed to protect the more useful creatures.

    It is completely up to the owners and if they cant control their pet then its their problem.[/quote]
     

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