It is indeed a fine line between the prophet and the madman. I think that line may be labeled 'coherence.' There seems to be something there somewhere in infinite's posts, but then again, didn't someone once say something along the lines of 'lock a monkey in a room with a typewriter long enough and you'll end up with Macbeth?'
Theres that Bloody Monkey again :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Munkee.....Mankind Understanding Nature Keeps Everyone Empowered Terence
I believe humans are just monkeys that learned how to talk, and in doing so, turned communion (where nothing need be said) into communication (where things can be hidden by words). Consequently, all language soon descended into babble and pure, unadulterated bullshit. As for technology - this word shares a common root with the word technique, in the ancient Greek word, techne. Back then, the tools and the skills to use them - the practice - were undifferentiated. Language is learned, and practiced, carpentry is learned and practiced, law is learned and practiced, computer science is learned and practiced. Religion is learned and practiced. some of the tools are ideas that can be passed on in useable form (memes). Some of the tools are manufactured, and can be passed on in usable form - technology. The techne of carpentry is clear - the tool (techne), plane, is the same as the skill (techne) to plane. Combining the tool with the skill creates a planed surface. Leave out the skill, and injury is the most likely outcome. Similarly with language. The technology is useless without the technique. Few techniques can be applied without some form of technology. Humans are artificers, nothing we do is "natural", that's our nature. We create artificial forms from wood, clay, fibre, stone, iron, uranium, fear, passion, desire. We create, in the first instance, in our imagination. Everything we do begins there. We judge the result - madness, sanity, goodness, evil, holiness, without even understanding where these ideas come from. Judgment itself is a tecnhe, the product of imagination, and best not used without some skill and training. We are made from dust that was forged from pure energy in an ancient supernova. Matter and energy are one, eternally transforming. You cannot be destroyed. Life is eternal, it just changes form. Always has, always will. You, your very self, are the nexus of imagination and matter. This is what I love about permaculture. It brings the imagination and its inevitable creativity into intimate relationship with a fundamental Universal Force - life energy. We find new ways of relating, create new relationships between living things, and by simple design, life must must expand in a permaculture. Look at Geoff and Nadia Lawton's work in Jordan! What a wonderful prayer! You may call me mad, too, if you wish. It doesn't matter, I don't mind. :wink:
Blessed are the Short-sighted Reloaded I'm currently jumping through hoops to try to build a business and rebuild a cottage here in Canada. Let's leave aside the myriad of forms needed to start a business, if you want to build a home that doesn't kill the planet, too bad. You've got some building inspectors in some municipalities telling people that there will be no straw bale buildings in their jurisdiction "as long as I'm in charge of the permit office." Ok, poisonsouprecipies.com can help with that one, but you want to heat with a masonry stove? Ok, but you must have a back-up heat source.($) Want to heat with a fuel resource that has peaked here (natural gas)? Ok, you DON'T need an alternative heat source. You MUST have a HRV system ($) installed even though all the straw bale home owners never actually need to use them. You want a living system to process grey and or black water? Ok, but you must install a septic tank anyway. ($) Maddness all around me.
I disagree that government is bad per se and that we need less of it. Governments can and do create lots of beneficial things for society... infractructure, health and education systems to name a few. What we need is more good government, not less government. How do we get good government? Maybe by participating in the democratic process... Someone probably said it better than I can, that a people will get the government it deserves...
Keyword "can." as in it's within the realm of possibilities. They cannot do so, however, by forcing people to use unsustainable and inappropriate technologies. I think what you are saying is that we need government not as a separate entity, but as part of ourselves. The idea of a democratic process is interesting, and perhaps it should be tried somewhere other than tribal settings. All we have in the "civilised" world are "representative democracies." One can expect democratic outcomes from "representing" democracy about as well as one can quech thirst by "representing" a glass of water. You either have a glass of water, or you don't You either have democracy or you don't. If you "represent" something, it is totally imaginary. Either I'm totally misunderstanding permaculture at a fundamental level, or our task as permaculturists is to go out there and remake the world by creating an underlying structure that makes the status quo irrelevant - "peaceful sedition" as Bill says. Floot got into trouble by going to the government and asking them to participate in making themselves irrelevant "Wouldnt it compete with Woolworths Supermarket?" His plan was perfect, but he was asking the wrong people to help. He should have enlisted the help of a sign maker, not the council. He could get the local Gove (is that right?) council seal copied onto signs to stick into the ground next to the trees he plants. Now they look official and the city will come around and take care of them. This was done somewhere in Queensland, I believe. Take Bill's advice, never tell the government anything you are doing. Just do it. Better yet, insure your work by making others think that the council did it. While I'm on it, wouldn't it be something if "someone" started stacking a whole bunch straw bales on flat-top rooves, coating them in compost then planting them up. Don't know which rooves will trigger security alarms or not? Find some local boys and ask them which rooves you can go on without setting off any alarms. They would know. I can give you that information for my hometown. :twisted: Scott Meister could give you that info for his. :twisted: (You might even know this yourself. :twisted: )
It's interesting to note that the political leaders who bleet most about "small government" or getting government out of the way - Bush, Blair and Howard, for example - have presided over expanding governments, mostly to "protect us", presumably from ourselves. For a democratic "government of the people, for the people, by the people" to prevail, the people have to drop their cynicism, and take responsiblity. Then "government" would shrink considerably. It saddens me that so many of my workmates will almost come to blows in heated arguments about sport, but politics is a taboo subject. If they spent ten percent of that energy on discussing community matters, I reckon their lives would be ten times better. If we leave power lying around, someone will pick it up. And they will always use it for their own ends.
"It saddens me that so many of my workmates will almost come to blows in heated arguments about sport, but politics is a taboo subject. If they spent ten percent of that energy on discussing community matters, I reckon their lives would be ten times better. " Noam Chomsky once said something very similar to that. I agree whole heartedly. But then again, it is our job to be out there peacefull supplanting the current structure by making it irrelevant. How's it going with the guerrilla green roof project? Do you have a team ready yet? Any project? Floot's idea is great, it just needs to be done with the help of the right people. Who are your local permies? Get them together and plan something diabolical then do it.
You either have democracy or you don't. Again, I disagree. For instance, I think that Australia is more democratic than say, Pakistan, but that doesn't mean that the democratic process in Australia is perfect or ideal. Have you heard the background story to why Tagari Farm was discontinued at Tyalgum? Well, it is a complicated story, but it involved the use of a council maintained road to access the property. Don't get me wrong, I can be as cynical about government and beauracracy as anyone, but I think it isn't healthy to be dogmatically opposed to all government! Try living without one... Go and live in Iraq or Rwanda or somewhere like that for a spell and report back to us...
I can agree with you that Institution A can be more democratic than Institution B. I don't know that I would say that either institution is a democracy, though (I'm a hard marker). Economics has some of the forms of science (statistical analysis, hypotheses, etc.) but when it calls itself a science, people in the sciences just laugh, and rightfully so. Also, my refusal to call any of the major governments in existence democracies, despite the existence of democratic forms does not mean that I take an absolutist position and condemn government as a matter of principle. On the contrary, I have been quite actively fighting to maintain the useful institutions of government all my life (health care, old age security, unemployment insurance, environmental regulation, etc.). Somewhere along the line, I think I said the wrong thing and gave the wrong impression. Sorry aboot that, eh.
Hey, no need to apologise... I am quite constantly having this discussion with people here in America that don't bother to vote for all sorts of reasons. I try to explain to them that their country effects what happens in so much of the world where people have no say in the formation of the US govt... I try to suggest to them that at least they have the opportunity to be involved, whereas those angry young men in Pakistan for instance don't, either in their own country or in the US...
Perhaps I should be perfectly clear and say that the trouble I see in trying to "represent" democracy is that you accept that as, to steal from that umimpressive neocon, "The End of History." Yeah, it's nice if you've go some representation instead of tyranny. But if democracy is really the goal, then stopping there is like settling to live with a bacterial infection all your life because at least it's not cancer. It's full health we want.
I don't want to be mistaken for one of those American-style gun-toting, my-country-right-or-wrong-love-it-or-leave-it-why-do-they-hate-us types. I don't think government is a bad thing, in fact I greatly admire the American constitution, and the people who drafted it. I particularly like the bits about establishing justice, promoting the general welfare, and "inalienable rights". And I just don't see how any community can function without someone being given the role of administering the inevitable nuts and bolts stuff - developing infrastructure, for instance. But I don't at all like the situation we have at the moment, where we vote for the people who in fact represent the the demands of corporate looters, to sell off our assets at bargain prices, in exchange for lowering the standard of living, and taking us on an express ride to serfdom. That's not progress. That's not even governance. It's just a confidence trick. And as for the modern American definition of Democracy, well, It took them a while to teach the latin Americans that the "freedom to vote" actually meant "choose carefully, or we'll kill you." Then there's the grotesque travesty in which we are all complicit in Iraq, it's nothing more or less than brigandage. Viva the Bolivarian revolution! Claro?
Okay, okay. Yes, yes, of course. I am sure that we agree on more than we disagree here! :lol: But, I am not talking about the type of distrust of government that you are alluding to, which claims the right to bear arms to defend liberty from potentially oppressive regimes, but the sort of lazy, why should I bother to vote for a government that is only going to grease the wheels of the coporations anyway? the government will be fucked, becuase governments are fucked sort of attitude, which is so prevalent amongst so many younger, switched-on Americans (and Australians too). I really believe that if the other half of the American population voted, we would live in a much better world. Yes we need to be self reliant, and lessen the power that goverments and corporations have by taking responsibility for real things, but if our local communities were actually strong enough to do that, for sure we could handle a bunch of politicians when it came to deciding where to put infrastructure! Am I making any sense? It is a bit of a catch 22, I suppose.
Well, Richard, now you're talking politics! This is my point - if more people were prepared to just have a dialogue about how they think things could be done, we would have a discourse happening. And that would be a good start (I'm not against sport either, by the way, even though it doesn't interest me much, I can see it's an important part of culture. I'm only asking 10%). I haven't checked, but do political parties' web sites have forums (fora?) for members and the public? There's a clue. There's no perfect system, just as there's no perfect garden, but I do think permaculture provides a few clues as to what might be a good way to organise a community, on any scale. Have you noticed how people who occupy government increasingly use management metaphors when describing their role? Government is not supposed to be about management, it's role is to administer, which is a very different thing. "Size" doesn't matter, it's the outcome that's important. How are the people being served? How are their resources being allocated and utilised on their behalf? How is the Common Wealth of a given community being administered on behalf of an informed and responsible populace? The American constitution was a brilliant effort; the first of its kind, and worth saving. It started well, and had a few notable successes, like the FDR administration (that word again). But what went wrong? The Australian constitution is a nice try, if you like feeble comprimises. But the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act, 1901 is an act of British Parliament. And one-time federalist, the loyalist John Howard, and his evil cromies, don't give two shits what it says, anyway. I think we could do better than that, and we could learn from the mistakes the Americans made, too. Viva the Bolivarian revolution!
Interesting perceptions on constitutions. I have always believed our constitution, especially in regards to the Federation and the Reserve Bank to be far superior than the US model. Henry Parkes and other contributors had the benefit of hindsight when drafting the Aussie constitution. A lot of discussion took place from 1870-90 and various models were looked at. German/Bismarck constitution of 71, Swiss constitution of 1874 and Canadian Constitution of 1876. The US model was certainly of influence but had just suffered its own constitutional crisis with the establishment of the Confederate States of America and the ensuing civil war. We [as aussies] also had to be mindful and include the concept of the Commonwealth and recognition of the Monarchy. ANYWAY, I actually got back into this thread to post the following. One of the trees I have guerilla-planted is E. ptychocarpa. One of my favourite trees. https://images.google.com.au/images...r=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-24,GGLG:en&start=0&sa=N
Floot! Ah! Yes! Planting things in public places. The original topic of the post. Thanks for the reminder. Strayed off topic a bit there. I've got a small collection of fruit seeds ready stick in at random around the place on this weekend's perambulations, as well. The golf course, perhaps, or a supermarket carpark..... 8) You're right about the Aussie constitution, too. The Washminster Mutation is/was a pretty good effort, really. But I'm sure Parkes, et al saw it as a temporary structure with room for improvement (ie a republic). And I'm furious about the bloke who's abusing it on behalf of his corporate masters at the moment. I have to agree with Douglas, that even the best constitutional democracy is probably only the least worst option, but what's the alternative? Looking into a couple of new posts has provided some food for thought about how things should/could be organised (or not organised?), so I'll be in my (metaphoric) cave having a think about that one for a little while.
"I have to agree with Douglas, that even the best constitutional democracy is probably only the least worst option, but what's the alternative?" First off, a disclaimer: I am a libertarian socialist. I believe it is possible for humans to organise themselves and work together without external coersion. Knowing that, you better know my built-in assumptions and can better judge my argument. I think we can get a clue as to alternatives from the 2001 Argentinian economic meltdown. First off were the factories. Many owners cut and ran during the crisis writing off their factories as a lost cause. People, needing employment, stepped in and took over the abandoned factories running them themselves, and turning a much better profit than the owners to boot. Natually, when the owners saw that what they had discarded was now profitable, they wanted it back. At any rate, it's my understanding that the model they used was participatory economics. Workers were involved in decision making to the degree that the decisions made affected their work. (There goes the need for expensive managers.) During the crisis, the government was basically AWOL but people still had needs to be met. This led to the establishment of informal neighborhood assemblies. In these assemblies, anyone could have the floor and anyone could vote. They were able to able to meet their needs and provide more than the regular councils had (providing medical care for residents in need, for example). Geoff encountered something similar in Iraq. Interestingly but perhaps not surprisingly, there were members of society who naturally, without instruction, sought to disband the (violently) assemblies (police chiefs and such), seeing them (correctly) as a threat to the old order that benefitted them. One argument I hear against this is that it takes more time. Yes, it does. Democracy takes time. This is were our good guerrilla friend Floot comes in with his excellent work. This, I think, is a big part of our task as permaculturists. Make Woolies irrelevant. Make Wal Mart irrelevant. Make the existing power structure irrelevant. Create time. Another argument I hear is what I call the Mussolini argument. The argument is that, as wonderful as this may sound, it is inefficient. Yes, George Bush was right when he said "[a] dictatorship would be a lot easier." At least, it would be easier in delivering the same old flawed system we have now. If our goal is efficiency, we probably should be advocating fascism. If it is freedom, justice and a sustainable world, we ought not to be swayed by such arguments. On that note, trees, trees, trees! Let's talk about Floots trees!
Thanks Douglas. I reckon we're in general agreement, so let me clarify my position. I am an avowed anti-fascist, and an admirer of the recent IMF-face-slapping developments in South America. Having learned a craft via trade apprenticeship, I also have a positive view about the benefits of the old Guild system (this link thanks to Rob Windt): https://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Ar ... idch5.html Also, despite my enthusiasm for some of the machines I use and maintain, I am proud to be called a Luddite. https://www.io.com/~wazmo/luddite.html https://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_ ... ddite.html Finally, my anger and astonishment at the rise of neo-feudal fascism under the guise of Globalisation sometimes spills over into a semi-coherent RAGE!!!!!!!! :evil: :evil: Apologies to all, for any misunderstanding or offence. Viva the Bolivarian Revolution! Now I'm off for a much needed walk, to plant some seeds. ...and back to Floot's guerilla tree-planting.......
