1. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That would have been Jack Waterman (he takes care of the brewing and teas - old hippy but very knowledgeable) or Chris Ellery (the MD - once again, very knowledgeable and a younger version of Jack with more of a marketing gift). Drop me a note if you need contact details for either.
     
  2. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't do any maketing. I simply want people to try in the field (not lab) and see for themselves if it works or not. This is how I have done it in every country I am in.
     
  3. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    S.O.P
    You ask which group of plants/species - Don't want to write a book - Many.

    My Nit-Fix microbes are Azotobacter and Bacillus
     
  4. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I met Jack out there on site. Great character doing a fabulous job :)
    Maybe it was Chris?
    I'll go back through my lecture pads & see if I can track it down :)
     
  5. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Am I understanding you correctly Peter - you don't want your brew to be assayed? If so then maybe people should stick with a company that is happy to have it tested in both the field and the lab as I have found over the years of biota pitches passed by me the only ones that can stand up (only two out of around 25 so far) are ones that are happy to be reviewed in both environments.
     
  6. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Here is a photo of Bazman inspecting the rhizospere under an ancient Ficus, which also had a Turkey's nest underneath it and samples were taken.

    [​IMG]

    In this situation, the nest was made up of sticks and leaves and was as you described. But, we have a Turkey nest of far different proportions at another house. It is made up of 95% Bamboo leaves, and would be a "rotter", rather than a "drier". You think the fungal brew would still be rich amongst this?

    As for the spores you are adding, or the fungus:bacteria brew, how are you creating these?

    Thanks for this, soil science does fascinate me.
     
  7. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can test it all you want mate.
    You haven't seen anything like mine and I don't appreciate some one that works for a company/intitution that mates money out of doing these tests puting my products down.
     
  8. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks Peter, I will test it then. By the way, I don't work for a company/institute, I make my own. And I was not putting it down I was asking you for enough information so that people could make an informed decision. You will be asked these questions by anyone who isn't dassled by the pitch and you could have taken the opportunity to have your product reviewed in an open forum. If it is as good as you say I, and the lab, would have provided a great reference for your product, if it isn't, then you would have know what to have fixed up. Business 101.
     
  9. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi S.O.P. - nice pic!

    Couple of notes, 95% bamboo leaves means it will be highly fungal and I doubt it would rot, break down but not rot, unless there is constant rain and in that case the brew would become anaerobic and you wouldn't want to use it anyway. If it truly is a rotting type I would guess that the nest was badly made and you should just move onto another nest. Not all male nests attract a female as they test out the nest with their beaks to make sure it is of the correct materials and temperature.

    With regards how do I do my own brews - I get as wide array of brown and green matter as possible as the more types I have the wider selection of biota I bring to the party. A normal mix will be 50% brown, 40% green and 10% high nitrogen (manures, blood and bone etc.). Create layers of each and make sure the mass is at least 1 cubic meter to allow for heat to build up. This is just the standard brew but you can change it for different output ratios. The key is the temperature, 3 days at 55c, or 2 days at 60c or one day at 65c, if it hits 68c then turn it to get some more air into it and cool it down. In theory you could take it to 70c but you will run the risk of killing off a lot of the good bacteria as it starts to move into an anaerobic state. This type of brew can take 6 months to break down completely and please, don't use the other ways such as Jeff Lawton's 18 day compost, all that is is mulch, not compost. Be aware that if the compost is black instead of dark brown it has been cooked, this is what you buy in the bags from the hardware and gardening stores, nice structure, no life in it.

    You can buy bags of this type of compost from companies that specialise in it but I don't want peter to think I'm spruiking other companies :)

    Take around 200gm of this mix, preferably after reviewing it under a microscope, and then create a brew using aeration and water. I won't go into the details of this but happy to provide a separate piece on it. The key here is to provide the correct foods to stimulate the bacteria or fungus growth cycles for the different plant types you want to put it on, either in soil or as a foliar spray. Be aware though that the food will also create an exponential growth of the biota and you need to make sure the brew doesn't go through an anaerobic cycle - same issues as above in the compost. If you want protozoa in the mix it needs to be brewed for at least 48-72 hours or just 10-24 hours for bacteria and fungus depending on the ambient temperature. This is also the reason I doubt bottled mixes as if they are of high concentration they have had a food added and the mix, without oxidation, will go anaerobic within around 4 hours. However, if it is just an extraction, then the density of biota is low and you will need a lot, but then again it ill last for months in a liquid.

    The actual microryza spores can be purchased, once again drop me a note is you need a supplier. They should always be added after the brew as the hyphae break apart when they are aerated too strongly.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  10. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,782
    Likes Received:
    142
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    gardening, reading, etc
    Location:
    near St. Charles, MI, USoA
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    -15C-35C, 10cm rain/mo, clay, full sun, K-G Dfa=x=Dfb
    :)

    if you have a healthy fruit tree stand already in another location, grab a handful
    of soil from that area and put it in a bucket of water with some organic materials. let it sit open to the air for a few days and then use it to dunk all the fruit tree roots. they will be innoculated with a healthy mix of bacteria and fungi. if you want to get fancy you can gently airate the bucket to keep the water moving, but i don't think it is really needed as long as you aren't capping the bucket or filling it too full of organic material. just a handful of soil and a handful of organic material should be good enough.

    so many trees could be innoculated from one bucket. in other words, you don't even need to use a sprinkle of soil from another location, you can just brew your own dip.

    the trees will be the primary energy source in the soil community once they get established. so the only thing needing to be done is to make sure the roots come into contact with the bacteria and fungi you wish to have them cohabitate with. after that nature will do the rest. as the tree grows and puts out sugars into the soil the bacteria and fungi will increase in population and spread as the root system spreads.

    using handfuls of dirt, spraying the hole, etc. all overkill IMO. the roots of the tree are the key. get them in contact with the bacteria/fungi and the job is done.
     
  11. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Thank you all for the input I am learning heaps as I go along and am really grateful for all the answers provided so far. As Far as I am concerned all news is good news .S.O.P I am not ignoring you I just think your questions are better answered by those that have volunteered their knowledge.I am approaching this from a perspective of cooperation and transparency but can only do so much, I hope you all understand this and we can keep the dialog going as I can see so much to be gained by exploring the potential of microbes. Thank you NGcomm for relaying your experiences They are invaluable .
     
  12. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    "LIKE"
    very much :)
     
  13. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hadn't thought to raid a scrub turkeys nest before…. There's one just across the road. As soon as the turkeys are done with it - it's MINE!
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    same here
     
  15. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I believe they nested in it, they are even going again. We have been raiding the sides without affecting the inner as we don't want to abuse the Turkey. So, even though it's mostly leaves, I assume like you say, fungi should be present. Would the Turkey nest under a normal forest soil have more fungi it considering it's made up more of timber?

    Never buy bags of things from stores so I'll take your word for it. If your recipe is good, overcooking should be difficult?

    [​IMG]

    I get what you say about mulch, here is my 18-day. Similar ratio to yours but I don't have the space to do it any more as I took over my who grassed area with mulch so I'm only mulching here now (keep in mind I am based out of 2 properties, one is larger than the other and is probably confusing by now - one has a turkey nest, the other doesn't).

    And a handful in an Elkhorn:

    [​IMG]

    You can PM me if you'd like. Obviously, I don't like extraneous costs so I will take it under advisement.

    Microscope, yep. Ha!

    Right, so the Protozoa, Fungi/Bacteria are ever present and will be present in the materials that the compost has been made from. Why Commercial mixes then? What do they add and why is it important to have them if some are always present? I can understand mycorrhiza partially, wouldn't that be present in healthy forest soil? Is it destroyed in transportation or is separating and selling them the best way to maintain healthy populations?

    Why would I want protozoa over fungus or bacteria?

    I've been making worm casting tea with castings and a handful of old mulch in a stocking, a dash of seaweed and molasses. Is 10-24 hours the best period for this brew? I think I've been doing 48 hours with only a small 7W fish pump with a tiny amount of aeration. Is this completely wrong, it doesn't smell bad besides the molasses stink?

    As for mycorrhiza, Bazman gave me a handful from a reputable seller of mycorrhizal products in Australia. I couldn't add it to water so I added it to a wormcasting (with BioChar)/mulch blend and then mixed it into a few planting holes. Hopefully that wasn't destroyed.

    It certainly does. Thank you for taking the time to post it. I really do appreciate it.
     
  16. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Definitely - the more 'brown', the more fungus


    Actually no, even with the mix I outlined I have had it at close to 70c within less than 24 hours so you need to keep a temperature gauge on it and turn when it hits 65-68c (check in multiple spots though to make sure you don't have an aberration)

    I know, it seems over the top but I believe a good microscope is paramount if you want to know what you are putting on your plants. In fact I would go so far as to say that without a good temperate gauge (for the compost heap), a dissolved oxygen meter (to make sure your brew hasn't turned anaerobic) and a microscope (to see the outcomes of both) there is no way to be confident in what you have actually created. Just my opinion but then again I have been called meticulous by friends..... and anal by others :)

    Yes, no and maybe :) It all depends what soils types you have, what has been used on it and what type of plants you are trying to grow. Bacteria and fungus are in the air that we breath but the majority of non forest soils are very low in fungus. Figure out what you have and then you will know what to add or stimulate to reproduce naturally. A key concept is that it is the plant that sets up the conditions. It provides the sugars to lure the appropriate biota towards it and a battle rages - the outcome of that battle is the elements the plant needs. Therefore always provide the largest array of biota as possible so it gets what is needs. The production and transportation of brews is very risky and a lot of deaths occur during the process. Fungus break up easily with aeration so by adding the spores at the end you along them to generate hyphae as soon as they hit the water, if food is added you need at least a 1/3 of the container to be air and even the, have it on the ground within around 24 hours, no air and you only have around 4 hours, or only use extraction without food - less biota but will live for weeks or months without issue. Conceptually these need to be treated like the most delicate babies you have every handled, care is what makes them stay alive.

    You always need protozoa...and nematodes etc. as they consume the bacteria and fungus during the above battle, drop the nitrogen once they grab the carbon they are after and presto - the plant has the food it is after. Obviously there are a lot of other processes for other element types and each 'type' of biota is needed to create a certain outcome, QED - make sure the brew is as diverse as possible!

    Worm castings are great but primarily for bacteria production (approximately 1 billion bacteria in each worm gut) but not all that good for fungus. Use some fish hydrolysate in your brew to help the fungal balance.

    Always good but better to add water to bring them out of hibernation/suspension
     
  17. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2012
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    S.O.P. I forgot to mention re the 7W pump - the norm is to have a minimum of 75% of air per minute to the amount of the water in the brew. As in 75 litres of air per minute for a 100 litre brew.
     
  18. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Do you believe that gardening or "permaculture" should be that meticulous though? Are we talking diminishing returns?

    Temperature gauge, DO meter, microscope, for example. Is the person that possesses these implements (as my immediate neighbour) going to be producing a greater sustainable output moreso than the hypothetical standard composting and mulch "me"? Or is close enough, good enough? How do you, personally, measure what you do compared to others? What I am asking is for a justification on why those tools are important.

    I hope you don't mind me peppering you with questions. I would take it to PM but these sorts of things should be shared, someone may learn from you. I'll donate to a charity if you would like an exchange, got a favourite?

    Basically, what I'm garnering, is that a soil test with a reputable lab is the first step. They will inform you of what you need, on the soil biota level and I assume nutrient level? I also garner that creating conditions that may favour healthy soil is a way to also create the biota you need, and hoping they find their way across what could be inhospitable paddocks to your backyard. You say that plants are important, this I understand through the exchange of carbohydrates, water etc. Is it best to pioneer hardy plants first, before adding external biota so as to create the in-soil conditions (and soil interface conditions) that they may be accustomed to?

    Brews as diverse as possible, are you saying here that feeding different food types for differing lengths of aeration and applying to soil at differing times is the best course of action? I've heard of bacterial brews (like my worm castings), I've heard of fungal brews (like my wood mulch compost) but I haven't ever read of a protozoan brew, nor the instructions on how to create one. Any links to reading material or is this something you are pioneering?

    Feel like making a post with your best course of action brews, ingredients, tools and methods? For the benefit of everyone that reads these forums. Or has it all been done before and your methods are a conglomeration of everything that is available on the WWW?

    As for the pump, I've always felt it has been underpowered, but I've been doing it in 15-18L mixes so it's probably borderline. Time to hit the aquaponic forums again, I suppose.

    Can't thank you enough.

    One more (sorry), container mediums and growing plants with soil biota. Is this a viable method of having soil biota in a prepared package for delivery to the soil with a plant already in-situ?
     
  19. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I too wonder about the real world sustainability of a system that needs you to almost be a junior microbiologist. Great for those that are into that sort of thing, but lets not loose sight of the fact that we've been feeding the world without all this fancy stuff for a long time.
     
  20. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Permaculturists are likely to be the harshest critics .We haven't been feeding the world without it we have been using it up and killing it off.
     

Share This Page

-->