Biodynamic vs Organic

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by baldcat, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Tam,

    Umm, this guy did it in 1926, there was no science to back it up at that time, don't know what he was on that made him do it, but he did....current scientists don't want to back it up cause of the esoterics involved, most have not even heard of it, but the younger ones (I'm 23, a pup).......the co-incidence is that the cow horns do replicate the conditions for lots of microbes (it hasn't worked with other containers, not permeable), as does the culture technique...but you're very right about the work done on the enviro simultaneously...it speeds up a natural process........the same as mulching, worm castings, tree plantings and all manner of manures...pretty much the same direction as permaculture (helathy rohbust enviro)

    Just a different method, I've got a personal interest as a protoscientist, I figure that if it's got lotions and potions, and it works, it might be easier to slip a vat of BD500 type stuff (non-esoteric name here) to a farmer..... you know, kind of ease the transition we all want to see, healthier farms, less monoculture crap, healthier enviro .....and then maybe hit him with permaculture once he's warm. Trying to learn to dance around the conservative traditionalists that I'm going to have to work with. I don't want to sell my soul and give up my beliefs to get a job.

    sorry about the big words, I can't help it, don't know any other names for these things......they're changing me I swear!

    Ichy :lol:
     
  2. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Oh Ichy, I was grinding my teeth, thinking 'those words! aaggghhhh', then you said it. I was raoflmao. Honestly!

    I know a bit about steiner. We've got a Steiner school not far from us and we were contemplating sending our kids there. (but changed our minds - won't go into reasons why)

    Sometimes the greatest inventions are happened upon by accident or because someone's had that intuition, without actually knowing why. It's like people who can relate to animals, there's something special that you can't learn from a text book.

    Musicians are a classic example.

    Tam
     
  3. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Tam,

    um, what did I say? I said alot (bit too much :roll: ) sorry if I made you grind your teeth please tell me how, was Steiner a nutter? and what does raoflmao mean? I've seen it around but......is it fluff? :lol:

    Just out of curiousity, how did steiner 'education' look to you? I've never gotten paste the first page on the detail (just couldn't read it, too esoteric) so I don't know anything about it, have only looked at biodynamics as farming technique.....is this naughty asking what you said you didn't want to go into...!

    But if the guy is a bit of a fruit bat in other areas....please tell!

    Ichy
     
  4. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    And I agree with you, there are special things that can't be taught in a text book. Only a fraction of wisdom is or can be in text, thank goodnes.
     
  5. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    rolling around on floor laughing my ass off

    You said
    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    The Steiner school looks great, is great.

    Ooooohhh, I don't want to attract criticism, I hate confrontation....

    Fantastic for music appreciation, creativity, imagination etc. But they were too alternative for me to feel, um, like I wasn't an outcast. Don't believe in exposing young children to ANY technology. Don't believe in TEACHING. You wait until the child wants to learn. By providing the resources, the child will search out the knowledge. I actually do adopt some of these techniques anyway. My 3.5 year old is already capable of typing his own name, albeit, on a computer!!!!! See where the contradictions are?

    Look, the concept is great. I love it, but I also know that if I didn't have someone pushing me at school, I'd've done sweet FA.

    The other thing I had a problem with is that they don't believe in discipline. I'm afraid that I do, and that's that. My kids, my way. Once again, I believe many kids would be okay and setting their own boundaries, but once again, I draw on my own experiences, and if my kids take after me, which they're bound to, well, I really think I'd be inviting trouble.

    And I'm not talking about physical punishment, I'm just talking about setting boundaries, rules, etc. Routine, structure, etc. They come and go as they please. I give my son lots of freedom. The door is open, winter or summer, and he comes and goes as he pleases. BUT, meal time is meal time, sit at the table, and bed time is bed time.

    Plus, I love my tv, and my computer, and many other things that technology has to offer.

    Also, the fees are a little out of our reach, but I wouldn't let that stop me if I was really committed.

    I'd still like to research it further. I believe that it has so much to offer. But I believe I can just as successfully adopt many of the techniques at home, to enhance their overall education.

    Tam
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    like permaculture, biodynamics as i see it is just an extension of organic (that term is now patented hey) or should we now say natural growing without the aid of man made chemicals.

    so like lunar planting and other methods it is an extension of prefference by the user. like i don't use composting heaps/bins whatever nor do i use worm farms that all happens in my garden beds, having those actions is just another job that needs doing.

    we should all work toward encouraging anything that extends natural growing and we should also work toward finding our own niche to some degree and grow and do things that works for our individuality.

    len 8) :)
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Before I say anything, I will say my understanding of BD is woefully incomplete. Also, Ichsani, you know that yer awesome, right?

    The way it looks to me, with my limited exposure is that biodynamics is a cross between organic farming... and voodoo :lol: ! Some of it is esoteric, and alot of it is pretty, um, flaky.

    Rudolf Steiner came up with Biodynamics. It is an interesting set of ideas, but he was a sever feco-phobe, and insisted that using composted humane shit ("humanure") would result in nerve damage, etc. Much of biodynamics is faith... so, therefore it is beyond question to followers... and, like I said, it seems to work....

    I, myself, do not follow BD, but... I have seen some farms where BD is used that look astonishingly good. However, in terms of atoms and molecules, theres is a lot of grey area that leaves science down here on the ground, and floats out into the cosmos and enters into the world of faith.

    Organic agriculture is NOT merely the absence of synthetic fertilizers and chemicals. Organic agriculture as defined in the organic certification standards I have read (EU, US, Soil Association, Belize's not yet passed organic law, etc) is meant to build and maintain soil fertility while being productive... that is repeated in every certification system, that soil fertility must be maintained and built on.

    In my 7 years of dealing with annual inspections of the Toledo Cacao Growers Association with thye Soil Association, I know they inspected for that, and issued warnings to farmers whose management style came at the expense of long term soil health.
     
  8. Peter Clements

    Peter Clements Junior Member

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    Biodynamics is a spiritual movement where secret knowledge is entrusted to a class of priests and their initiates, where manure takes on the mysterious qualities of a sacred sacrament.
    Permaculture, on the other hand, is an anarchic network of itinerant teachers, who freely share their knowledge to create a more self-reliant, earth/people friendly and decentralized society.
     
  9. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Ummm, Peter, we've covered this topic before. With the exception of the wonderful people on this forum, there are too many permaculturalists out there only willing to share their knowledge for a fee.

    Tam
     
  10. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Oh I see Tam, The big word thing....I'll try to keep to a minimum, I confuse myself often too :lol:

    So Steiner was a bit of a nutter! Interesting form of education by the sound of it.......sure are some strange ideas there, as a kid who wasn't exposed to technology....... it was a bitch finally learning how to use it, I still talk to my machines, somehow expecting them to respond........ I don't think kids should be isolated from it......I know 12 year olds who can write web pages and do all fancy things that are amazing! The tech won't go away in a hurry, and the communication is great!

    I'm sure you are a wonderful mum Tam, and real self discipline is in my book, the most valuable thing a kid can learn.....just look at that super nanny show on telly, that all seems to be about a lack of discipline and respect (yes I've watched it :oops:)


    Gardenlen, has someone really gone and patented 'organics' ? :doubt: That's just a bit silly, does that mean I can't use the word now? :axe: I know what they can do with their intellectual property laws......


    Welcome back from the jungle Christopher! Steiner was a human poo phobe? How funny! :lol: ...I like the results, but I'm trying to translate the methods into science speak :cyclopsani: so people don't have to swallow a whole belief system too,......makes the pill a bit too bitter.. but thats a long term project.........and will post any solid sci-fi results that I get in future...and it doesn't have to be called BD, actually..is that patented too? Oh crap.........:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    :flower: ichy
     
  11. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Tam,

    True, to a large extent, and all of us in here are great people, sharing and up lifting one another. And, you are right, there is a lot of $$$ in exchange for info going on *(did I mention that Maya Mountain Research farm is hosting a Permaculture Design Course Feb 6-20th? :lol: ), but conceptually, permaculture is closer to fostering idea exchanges than BD is.

    Peter, with an admirable economy of words, and an equally admirable directness, you said what I wanted to say, but after some events involving the suitability of Round Up, I didn't want to risk an ugly scene. There is a sectret knowledge aspect of Biodynamics that I find distatsteful, a degrees of initiation thing, with a real insider/outsider dichotomy that I have never been able to get past.

    However, it seems to work, sometimes.

    Tam, also, Rudolf Steiners ideas of schooling were sort of an after thought. He came up with the whole Waldorf School philosophy in a day. It has since taken on the sacredness accorded the BD thing.

    Gots to run. Dinner bell ringin!

    EDITED: Ichsani, missed your post! Just wanted to say hello! Hello!

    See you later!

    C
     
  12. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I was just looking up BioDynamics, and if anyone wants to try burying a cow horn (I think they're naturally hollow), the recommended depth is 40-60 cm.

    When I hear about bulky things being buried, I always wonder if the depth is measured from the top or the bottom....

    Sue
     
  13. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    There are many Steiner Schools (Waldorfschule) in Germany. And the education has his good sides (lots of music creativity) and bad sides.
    What is false that they don't set boundarys , the contratry is true they are much more authoritan than normal German states schools are. Teh bad thing is that they have several years the same teacher, and if a kid and the teacher cannot work together it is always bad for the kid. There is one point which they are not very strict that the chikldren study,they can make pottery instead of maths. And for most it is very hard to get ito a University.

    Steiner and his Antroposophie is more a philosophy of life, including architecture, arts, theory of colours... where agriculture is only one part. Biodynamic in Germany is a certification for food which is grown in the biodynamic manner as well.
    I think this thoughts are interesting if not taken too serious.
    The thing with the cowhorn is a bit the same than homeopathie (I think i wrote it false) which was invented in the same time(?).
     
  14. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Trying not to get offended here guys :( as I have a lot of time For Rudolf Stiener...and there are plenty of critics of Bill Mollison et al (Nutters,weirdo's, greenies etc etc)...in the conventional farming community.
    Yes there is a heap of spiritual values in Stiener's work and BD science behind the practice can be a bit hard to follow. Burying the cow horns was not invented by him but was a carry on from a very old european ???british natural farming practice from many years ago.
    I have found the BD organisation here in NSW very helpful, open and friendly. Chris or anyone... happy to pass on the quarterly magazine...heaps of stuff in it much relavent to permaculturists. Just post back when you've finished with it.
    The education system I've had no experience of but have heard good things of it. It's the same with home schooling or public versus private school..pick the system that suits your child's personality and with values you as a parent can support. In education one size does not fit all.
    Debate and discussion is what inspires us all...
    Cathy
    PS Should see my roses.. recovered from the drought....only thing i did was prune and apply BD 501.
     
  15. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi Cathy,

    These are for you :flower: :goodman: :oops: :angel1: :hippy2: :lovestory: :love7:

    I wasn't trying to offend anyone, :D please accept my apologies :D :oops: :D if it was anything I said

    .....as I said in my posts, the only stuff I know about Steiner is BD practice, and i was open about my position (I think/hope) that I'm a scientist in training and am interested in farming techniques that are labelled esoteric, because of the wonderful results obtained, so I'm trying to follow the science cause I'm a bit left of center............ :cyclops: I realised that conventional ag people won't touch hippi things with a barge pole, no matter how good the results look, "you want me to do what? with cow horns? where? go home mate!" (that's from my experience here in Oz with some primary commercial producers) the same attitude unfortunately applies to permaculture, you won't believe some of the SHOCKING agricultural practices I have seen.............it's these guys that I'm going to work with :twisted: so I'm interested in methods,and a language that they can hear (Tam will end up calling me big word lady!)............ I've got alot of time for Stiener too

    .the reason I asked about the education was that I wanted to know what people thought about him as a man, and some of the broader areas of his work......this is because I expect to get criticism from the conventional establishment to which I must eventually go begging for research money......so I wanted to know what other opinions were and posted my own too in context. :wink: :D


    But about the magazine you mentioned? I've only got three of the "Biodynamic Growing" (editor John Bradshaw?), but its 6monthly (sooo long to wait)..are you telling me that there is a quartly publication?

    And now you've really got me interested, Old European farming practice? Can you tell me more? Please?

    Ichy
     
  16. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    An elderly friend long time organic grower before it got a lable told me it was an old practice in England...years ago ...to bury cow horn and use the compost next spring....wan't done with the stirring stuff thou. Dont know anything more and alas can't ask for more info :cry:
    Newsleaf...Journal of Biodynamic Agriculture Australia.
    published quarterly...
    Spring 2005...main topics Native Pasture Cropping: BD and the soil food web:Insulin resistance:BD Home garden...plus all the usual bits and pieces and adds.
    hope this is of some help
    Cathy
     
  17. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Thanks for the publication info Cathy, I'll try to track it down....sounds great, especially native pasture cropping 8) 8) sorry that your friend is gone, sounds like one excellent gardener, and thankyou for shedding some light on the possible origins of the cow horns, now that it's older, Ilike it even more.... will pass on any info that I dig up on the subject : )

    Cheers
    Ichy
     
  18. Lolly

    Lolly Junior Member

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    Hi guys.. thanks for a great thread. I'm watching and reading my eyes dry (again!) with great interest. I know little about BD other than what is readily available, ie cow horns and creating vortexes (is that something to do with chaos???), moon phase planting etc, but, I do know that the BD produce I've had is something to behold.. delicious!

    I also had a friend who left our local area to relocate to be closer to a Steiner school and she says her kids haven't looked back. I'm way too grouchy a mum to be able to hold to anything too esoteric in the way of parenting though.. :wink:

    I was interested to see Ichy's point regarding technology. If it wasn't for the technology in our homes these days none of us would be even discussing this topic.. but I'm stating the obvious! I wonder just how disadvantaged a child who isn't exposed to any technology would be once they had to venture out into the "real world"? It's a point that has often been raised regarding 'alternative' schooling. To learn computing skills by "osmosis" as such must be easier than having to learn it later. Who knows, perhaps the children of these alternative schools may create a world of their own without the need of modern technology, and never need to venture out into the "real world".

    I continue to watch with interest.. :)
     
  19. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Lolly, you made me lol! :lol:

    I too am a grouchy mum!

    We're only 5 minutes away from the steiner school and from what I've seen, the kids aren't disadvantaged in the least for not having been exposed to technology. My reason for not embracing it is cos I don't want to give up MY technology. A bit selfish I know, but I need to be happy too.

    We saw some of their music students perform at the Healesville Racecourse market. They were fanstastic! And what they had that other kids of the same level don't normally display, was a real involvement with THE music. It was a really good experience, hence our reason for researching the option for our own children.

    I'm afraid I'm just not committed enough to the cause for my own selfish reasons. It's probably not really the discipline thing, although I could just imagine my kids going to school and telling the school counceller I made them sit on the 'naughty chair' 10 times last night!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    Tam
     
  20. Lolly

    Lolly Junior Member

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    roflmfao!

    The idea of the esoteric appeals immensely to me, particularly when you experience something like what you did with the musicians, but the reality is greatly different I suspect.

    Besides, I firmly believe that children need a degree of structure and definate boundaries. How do they learn to set their own boundaries if they've never been shown any? Bitter experience has made me very conscious of teaching my children how to set their boundaries; "no means no, thanks for the offer but I'll ring mum etc etc" in order to keep themselves safe.

    As my wise old grandfather has said to me many times.. "everything in moderation.." A little discipline and boundary setting with a lot of love and understanding is so far working here. So far... :? :D
     

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