best composting toilet

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by kevin, May 11, 2005.

  1. kittykate

    kittykate Junior Member

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    thanks to sweetpea and len

    Hi all,
    i joined this permaculture forum only yesterday, and am already feeling much better off for that.
    I am investigating getting a composting toilet, and have conducted hours of reserach on this topic, including avidly following the excellent contributions of sweetpea and len - thank you for sharing your experiences with composting toilets.

    I will look into the one len uses - the nature-loo. Other recommendations are welcome. I have looked at the one in Mother Earth (1984). Thank goodness for archiving on the web!

    If i get the nature loo, I will need the version that sits on a slab. What i really want out of a composting toilet is one that has no parts that will need replacing, and one that will need no mini-life forms to be periodically purchased and added. i do not want to be dependent on a business to survive. i want it to work forever as is, and i am heading for self sufficiency. Once i have the worms in place, will they just keep breeding in utter joy in a world that will keep providing for them (ie, courtesy of my family of 3!)
    Of course i have read in my forays that killing potential nasties in human poo is vital - someone somewhere suggested putting humanure compost in metal bins, to help create the temperature needed for parasite death. In addition to the composting toilet, would this be a valuable stage before using the compost on the garden? I really want to use it on food crops, as i am putting in a permaculture garden, and 95% of the plants at my place will be food producers. It is inevitable that the compost will be needed for that. We humans are the best chickens out! My 6 chooks cannot compete with what our family can make. seems a pity not to use it, as long as it is free of parasites.
    Is there any reading to be done on how parasites may enter the food produced by a plant? Would my tomatoes and oranges have the parasites, or would they remain in the soil?
    And one final question - on dog poo. How adversely can that effect a garden? My hubby wants a dog, but i am having enough trouble thinking about recycling human poo, let alone dog poo (and will it wee all over my veg? AAACK!)
    I appreciate any comments.
    Thank you
    Kate
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day kate,

    our research at the time and our experiences now are that nature-loo pretty much is going ot be ahrd to be beaten only if you do a homemade system as per the humanure book then the price will be beaten but the process is almost the same escept with n/l on a slightly larger scale.

    as we ahd heaps of wind we fitted a turbine ventilator at the top of the vent pipe, it would benefit on the less breezier days if we had painted the spinner and about top 1 meter with black paint this would heat the air inside and cause that air to evacuate drawing air from system up and out.

    so we had absolutely no moving parts (apart from the spinner), we also reckon it is about the most versatile system available as all you need do is buy extra drums as your needs increase. we ahve pic's of our rural home on our site and it features how we fitted the toilet in.

    we had absolutely no odour ever to the amazement of the squeemish visitors who came to our place.

    if you do go to n'l don't be shy about telling them who sent you but only after you have done the deal hey? or contact me by e/mail i believe companies should at least know about these sorts of recommendations.

    it will be the best move you may ever make.

    happy new year

    len
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Kate,

    Just a few distinctions that I think are important to reiterate.

    1. Plants need bacteria for their root production, and organic growing relies on adding high levels of bacteria to the soil. We get infections if we come in contact with that bacteria, so we need to use gloves, wash hands and shoes, etc. This goes for any kind of compost, garden or humanure.


    2. People and dogs are carnivores, we eat meat, and we have carnivore intestines. Even vegetarians have carnivore intestines, so you can't escape what could possibly come out of carnivore intestines. And it could be parasites, but it is ALWAYS bacteria.

    Dogs have pin worms, hook worms, Toxicaria canus, round worms which are the most heat-resistant pathogens, and composting relies on heat to get it safe. This is some good information about composting dog poop.

    https://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/DogWaste.htm


    3. Chickens, horses, cows, goats are herbivores, they only eat grasses, grains, and plants, and that's why their output is a bit less worrisome. However, it still has high levels of bacteria. As I mentioned previously, a friend of mine got a life-threatening lung infection from using a leaf blower to clean horse manure out of the back of his truck, it got airborne, he breathed it, he was in the hospital and bedridden for several months. Two years later it still affects his life.


    But what is most likely to happen in contact with any of the bacteria in any kind of compost (humanure or garden compost) is not that we will die or even be hospitalized, but we can get bacterial infections in our eyes (conjunctivitis) , sinus infections, lung infections, mouth and tongue sores, severe infections in cuts on our skin (my husband got one that was really scary from handling an outflow pipe on the composting toilet without gloves), and mild to severe cases of diarrhea.

    A lot of people discount these kinds of infections as just what happens in daily life, they clear up before too long. They don't connect it to the bacteria that they are coming in contact with, but it's way more apt to happen to people who are in contact with high levels of bacteria in compost, any kind of compost. The world is full of bacteria, our bodies are usually capable of fighting it off, but when we have more-than-average amounts of bacteria in our environment, we do need to be sure it's been handled correctly.

    I have never found a reliable citation online, like a university, a government site (not a blog) that says we should use humanure on annual vegetables. They recommend it on perennials, and I use it on fruit trees.
    Plant roots are microscopic and do not uptake parasites. But rain and watering from a sprinkler can cause splashes that could put small amounts of bacteria onto the outside of a tomato, etc., which we might be affected by.


    And we all know cats and dogs that sleep under the shade of those trees could get bacteria on their fur which they lick, and I pet them, so we need to be aware of how the cycle can continue. I am very careful to cook mine an extra year, so the odds of a parasite that I put under those trees is pretty low. I never put it on top of the mulch, I always work it into the top couple inches of soil to make sure that the soil bacteria get to work on it right away.

    I also don't have control over the wild animals that poop under those same trees, (most are carnivores where I am) leaving whatever parasites and bacteria they leave. So care with bacteria is an element of organic life that is important to keep track of.

    If you want to use human urine (which starts out sterile, but soon comes in contact with bacteria in the environment) in compost tea (which also has a ton of bacteria), it is high in nitrogen. Just be sure to dilute it with water, and remember, it's alkaline, so balance it with an acid to keep your pH low. In a 30 gallon garbage can of compost tea I put about 1 gallon of urine. The plants love it. :)
     
  4. kittykate

    kittykate Junior Member

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    more poo

    thanks again len and sweetpea,
    i have added your website to my favourites len - looks great, and i need much more time to explore it than i have today.
    sweetpea, i too would love to see a formal study on the effects of fecal bacteria from any source on growing food. i like your suggestion that humanure is best used on fruit trees and perennials. i shall let the traditional kitchen compost feed the annuals.
    there is so much to consider, but it is so exciting.
    you know, as i took my first drive up the road today for 2008, it dawned on me that no-one has the latest model of anything; no-one has the 2008 phone or car or big screened whatsit. . . and so another round of rampant consumerism will ensue. 2007 is so last year! what a waste of resources. :shock:
    happy new year!
    kate
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    kate,

    our composted humanure fed our vege' gardens.

    len
     
  6. lotte

    lotte Junior Member

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    Re: best composting toilet

    hi all :D
    has anybody any expirience with rota loo or knows anything negative about it? I am thinking of bying one. I live in victoria. the bin will get very littel to no sun.it is cooler where we live and the summers dont get very hot here.i am thinking of getting the mini rotaloo 650 ( RL650). It is only for littel unit we would like to build on our garden for my daugther.i had a look at ecolet a fully automatic one(is for sale in the tradingpost)but since it is an enclost unit and it has parts that can break down i am not sure if it is a good idear. I can not conect the unit to our existing septicsystem. I would be gratfull for advise. please excuse the spelling :? mistaks english is my second lang.
    thanks lotte
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: best composting toilet

    g'day lotte,

    one post i read said that as the bins fill on the carousel it causes the carousel to tilt, and they had to use a brick to hold it level, they also mentioned that the system didn't process toilet paper real well if it got lots ie.,. ladies using it.

    another aspect of it durability was that if your need changed and you hade the smaller or mid sized boxes you needed to buy a set of larger boxes. we also ahd an issue with its price when compared to nature-loo, and nature loo far more durable as if you ned extra capacity you simply buy an extra bin or 2. plus with n/l no moving parts no out of balance can occur too easy. we were very impressed in n/l simplicity we even had enough wind to vent the system uisng a spinner on top of the vent pipe so no power was ever used.

    len
     
  8. lotte

    lotte Junior Member

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    Re: best composting toilet

    thanks len the n/l is a lot cheaper and with the tilting that maks sense.
    I saw the mini rotaloo on the net (ecoshop)for $2798,51.
    When i rang the factory for a price there told me $3900.The ecoshop price would not include everything.
    Here in melb. is a dealer from n/l and i will ring him tomorrow.
    The n/l pedestral does it sit nice and firm on the floor or is it wobbely.Some where along the line somebody was complaining about that.But I dont know if it was the n/l. I tryed to find a site were you could find some review about diferent composting toiles i looked for hours nothing exept this site.
    on a differnt note, we used to live in cabolture.Iliked it there.
    lotte
     
  9. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: best composting toilet

    sorry can't help there, we had the big unit with the drums, if something that is built to sit flat on a floor base wobbles i would start thinking there is some uneveness of the floor surface, not to say that there may not be a manufacturing or design fault in manufactured items. but if someone did experience the problem and they determines it was their n/l that was faulty, my experience with the n/l people wuld indicate they are very quick to replace items that may not be as they should be.

    our first wooden toilet lid cover developed a split about 2 years or a bit after we ahd bought the toilet, i didn't think it would be covered under warranty but i contacted them and hey presto a new lid came without hassle.

    len
     
  10. lotte

    lotte Junior Member

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    Re: best composting toilet

    We looked at the system today. It looked pretty good ,not to complicated and easy to install.
    We will try the 2 pack classic 750 with ceramic pedestral and the wooden sit and see how we go.
    Good to know that there have a good warranty.
    Our bungalow will be on stamps and ca. 1.50m high. now my husband and I are wondering how heavy the drum will be and how easy it would be to get it out.
    I saw in the picture that yours is much higher of the ground.
    :D lotte
     
  11. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: best composting toilet

    good one lotte,

    if you mean the house is 1.5meters of the ground that is more than enough room for the drums, our builder went overboard by nearly 200millimeters, we had no trouble sliding the drums, but a little trolley with 4 caster wheels on each side would have made it easier. with the drums i think you only need a minimum of 800milimeters we wanted 1 meter which is +200mm just incase we wanted to make little trolleys for the drums as we got older maybe?? we ended up with 1.2meters which was too much, but that's what happens when builders have no idea what they are doing.

    len
     
  12. lotte

    lotte Junior Member

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    Re: best composting toilet

    hi len
    so you dont use a trolly now you just slide the bins? In the shop there asked us if we wonted a trolly . We got 2 normel ons.
    But the 4 weel ons would be more praktical.
    The builder (dial a shed) can only go up to 1.50meter high with the stumps. We live in the hills so our block is on a slop.Some of it could be on low stumps some on higher ons.so we have to make sure he dosent start to low.
    Next thing to think about is how to cleane up the greywater not to expencive,simple if possible. Any good sites ?
    I was looking up solar hot water and tryed to find a side that could tell me what solar panels are good or not so good in colder not sooooo sunny climats. I found the solar evacuated tube from Apricus,Solarlord,Hills.
    :D lotte
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: best composting toilet

    g'day lotte,

    sadly we are not on the property anymore but back in suburbia in one of those eco' unfriendly macmansions that they build for everyone to buy. miss the property and especially the house and toilet, going to get a saw dust bucket toilet as in 'humanure' started when i can, can't afford any money for much else or a n/l compact model would be on the cards.

    but yes all we did was slide the drums takes a littel effort of course, but i was thinking for as we got older to have a sort of trolley for each bin made say out of s/steel angle and 4 caster wheels of sort, ones that would be robust but not bulky, one on each corner. but sliding was no bother that only happened about every 7 months (the time it took to fill a bin) then we never realy filled them maximum either.

    len
     
  14. lotte

    lotte Junior Member

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    Re: best composting toilet

    Sorry to hear that len.Tought you still lived in the house you designed.
    Today i had a good look at your website and saw your new house.
    Your webside is abselutly great.
    :D lotte
     
  15. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    2010 update

    I want to update this thread because Envirolet is NOT getting good reviews. I can't tell you how many people have contacted me having problems. They all complain that the fan is too loud, the bars never move (even if they did, what's the point of making vertical slices in it????) A family of 4 will fill up the MS-10 too quickly, it doesn't hold enough and composting just isn't a fast process, so we have to make sure there are containers big enough to hold 6 months' worth of deposits. Check this out:

    https://www.poopreport.com/BMnewswire/991.html

    i have since removed the guts out of the main container and use it as a composting bin with a few main things in mind:

    1. This kind of composting is no different from gardening composting. Use ONLY a MIXTURE of at least three of the following: straw, mowed up leaves, pine litter, mowed grass, dry, mowed weeds, tree litter sweepings (bottle brush tree droppings are great). Always use damp soil mixed with the above three things (can be potting soil from a nursery if necessary) after every deposit. It requires the microbiology found in soil to break everything down. It requires dry straw, dry weeds, dry pine litter to absorb the pee. Peat moss and wood shavings takes waaaaaay too long to break down and don't encourage bacterial growth quickly. What you want to see within a few days is whitish-looking stuff on the pile. If you see hairy-looking stuff, add more dirt and straw. A bale of straw is cheap and easy to store in a dry place. Add 1-2 small cottage cheese containers of the above mixture over any solid deposits to completely cover it. Throw in a handful of straw before peeing and aim accordingly!

    As soon as you put this mixture on a fresh deposit it will not smell. The toilet smells like the floor of a damp forest if things are in balance. You can also add cut up herbs like lavender, sage, lemon balm, catnip, etc.

    2. Someone must volunteer to monitor the pee, and depending on how things are absorbing, when it's starting to get too damp, pee into a large cottage cheese container to be dispensed in gopher holes or garden compost piles. You don't want sludge in the bottom, that means there's too much pee going in OR not enough dry straw to absorb it. The drain tube will plug up with bits of carbons or sludge, so fold it in half and tie it off with a twist tie.

    3. Any toilet paper breaks down just fine, and it absorbs pee, which is crucial to breaking down carbons, so buy whatever is on sale.

    4. Any large composting toilet works on the principle of adding to the top, and removing from the bottom after several months, maybe 1/4 of the pile, maybe 1/3 depending on how cold it is where you are and how quickly it's all breaking down. Sliding a flat, square shovel into the door as far as it will go, then pulling out some of the bottom of the pile removes it. The pile drops, but is never entirely taken out at once. It's on ongoing process, kind of like making yogurt, you leave some of the "culture" in there to finishing composting and add the right bacteria to the new deposits.

    5. Microbes don't need as much air as we do, and with layers of organic matter mixture there's plenty of air for the process, as long as you don't get too much pee in there. If there's sludge, cut 3 pieces of PVC pipe long enough to stick vertically into the pile and be a bit above it. Drill small holes in the pipe so air can get to the bottom of the pile. Use a shovel to open up the pile and insert the pipes. This ought to help dry out the bottom, and of course, don't add any more pee until it is shovelable from the bottom. But this is your first clue as to when to withhold pee and how it works in your particular environment.

    6. Use a pyrethrin-based spray to kill gnats and flies. Pyrethrins kill bees, so it's best to only use it in the unit. The compost will break down the pyrethrin so it can be used around perennials.

    7. I take all "compost" from the bottom removal and put it in a metal garbage can with a tight metal lid and place it in the sun for another year. That will kill any bugs that get in there, but will allow further composting to continue.

    8. Remember that bacteria and fungi produced in any composting process should not be handled. Use disposable gloves. Don't touch your fingers to your eyes, nose, mouth or take a bite of an apple during a break! It never seems to fail that my eye itches right in the middle of shoveling! Ignore it!! :) Don't get it on your shoes and track it around the house, especially on carpeting. Use an antibacterial cleaner to clean the top and underside of the seat, but don't throw that cloth in the toilet. It will kill the bacteria you desperately need to keep things breaking down.

    :)
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Another update, I gave up trying to make the hardware cloth lining on top of the blades work. The pile that is created above it is too small to get hot enough to break down. Chunks will fall off the side and turn into sludge because pee will go to the bottom and be too wet without anything to absorb it.
     
  17. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I'm still wondering how a gopher copes with a sudden influx of wee down its entry hole!!!
     
  18. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    eco, I've tried it because I have a really bad rodent problem, and it might slow them down a bit, but they are perfectly willing to go around . In the best of both worlds, they'll fill in the hole with dirt and act like a little underground tiller for you :)
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day sweat pea,

    well the old adage comes into play hey "keep it simple stupid" (KISS), that is why nature-loo streets again of the opposition, it simply works simply.

    thank you for your comments way back then 'lotte', somehow i must have gotten out of touch of the thread.

    len
     
  20. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    [ "keep it simple stupid"

    I always thought that was a rude statement because it implies someone is stupid and someone is smarter, and that's usually not the case :)
     

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