best composting toilet

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by kevin, May 11, 2005.

  1. kevin

    kevin Guest

    Hi all,
    I know there was a posting about the subject just recently,but not about the best design that people have used.

    There are so many out there and I have only just started to look into it.
    So many designs and I know nothing about it....its a bit daunting.

    What I want to do is set a few up at a scout function centre.Its in a bush (rural)setting(its in Australia) and I dont want to effect the surrounding area.

    It would get a bit of use,so its not for low volume.

    Any advice would be appreciated as I want to do the right thing.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day kevin,

    we chose the natire loo along the keep it simple theory, it is simplicity in design eg.,. no moving bits. versatile ie.,. it uses the same size bins so depending on requirements you are not buying different sized bins to do the job.

    the only other that comes into that is the e-design model that you build yourself.

    there are other ideas in the humanure book that are even simpler but for the manufactured models that's about how we see.

    len
     
  3. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I researched and bought the Environlet composting toilet, and I don't like it. It has a great website which is very convincing, but some of it is misleading.

    This one works on the principle of using lots of expensive extra microbes you buy from them (plus tax, plus shipping) to break everything down. That is an extra cost that no one needs. There is no way to stir it, so you are stuck with no way to change the size and combination of deposits, mix the active parts with the inactive parts, and it's very slow.

    But the other problem is that the shelf that everything sits on is way too close to where you sit. It gives everyone the creeps. Then you pull a handle like a sifter to make the dry stuff drop to the bottom, and all that does is eventually make the whole toilet move so that you have to build a whole encasement to keep it in place and the pipe lined up with the ceiling hole.

    And they tell you you don't have to look at the stuff, that's a big selling point, well, you certainly do have to look at it because the trap door has to be open, and if the trap door can't close, you're not only going to have to look at it, you're going to have to move it around with sticks or something you'll have to clean off afterwards, and that is NOT the way it's supposed to be.

    There is also a filter you have to replace that the outgoing fluids go through. By the time it needs replacing, no one on the planet wants to go near it. They don't tell you this, either. It's only mentioned in the instructions when you get the thing, and in the parts section, so ALWAYS go to the parts/maintenance/repair section of whatever website you are at. If they don't have one, don't do business with them.

    And compost really only works well, physically and psychologically, when you can stir the stuff, get it all working together, and then you don't need all the extra expensive stuff.

    There is a homemade composting toilet plan in the Jan/Feb 1984 issue of Mother Earth News. I imagine this plan is around elsewhere, and they may even still have it available at their site.
     
  4. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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  5. kevin

    kevin Guest

    best composting toilet

    Thanks all for your replies.
    Ive learnt a lot in the last couple of weeks.
    Of all the commercial ones out there, Rota-Loo,though a little expensive,seems to be the best.

    There is a guy in NSW near where I live that has had to go to many companies and private homes to fix and take out a lot of systems that just dont work.
    It seems the industry is riddled with good sounding but useless systems.

    The system he uses/designed for large usage is a 2 pitt system.Its like 2 concrete bunkers side by side.
    But one of the most important things is that at the bottom of the pitt that will take 1 year to fill,is to have a wooden pallet layer.What this does is to allow circulation of air all the time,and a solar driven fan that makes sure that there is air all the time.

    You wood think that the pallets wood break down.They do,but over a very long time and can be replaced when you empty it every 2 years.

    By the time that the first bunker is ready to empty,its been sitting there over a year,with the first deposits made 2 years ago,so its had a lot of time to break down.

    He starts the composting process by using already composting leaf litter or other already composting material from the local area.

    He also uses saw dust or wood shavings every day.

    There is no such "make and forget" system,they all need attention because its a compost heap,and need to be attended to.

    Hes been doing this for 15 years and it works really well,but its for high volume use.The system can be made smaller for houses,which is what is in his own house.

    Any other info you come across will be appreciated !
     
  6. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Just for what it's worth, do you realize how much will be in the pit at the end of two years? The leaf mold breaks it down, but it also adds bulk to the pile, and that's one icky job shoveling that much stuff at once.

    I know this man knows his stuff, and maybe he's just used to dealing with the end product, but even for some of the sturdiest of folks, it's a rotten job, especially so much at one time. The toilet units have you dealing with an 18 by 3-inch tray of completely dried and composted end product, which is safer for everyone.

    In addition to the solar fan, you may want to put a wind turbine on a pipe above the roofline leading down into the pit (see the Mother Earth News turbine) so there is even more dehydration happening there. Everything stays so very wet, with the toilet paper and the moisture from the ground around the pit.

    Be sure to use rubber gloves that you throw away, rubber boots that you disinfect, and make sure none gets down inside the boots. And don't touch your eyes, nose, or scratch your face until you've disinfected your hands, and the shovel you're using. Put your clothes immediately into the washer. And be sure to bury the end product in a long, narrow trench so you'll have more dirt than end product, not a clump in a hole, no matter how decomposed it looks. Pathogens are microscopic, you won't see them :)
     
  7. kevin

    kevin Guest

    best composting toilet

    sweatpea,I think you have mis-read what I said.

    Its not just one ventilated pit...its 2 side by side.At the end of the 2 years,one pit has been composting for one full year without any new material,so i really think that it would have fully broken down by then.

    Unless somebody can tell me from their own experience that a pile would not compost after all that time...I think thats a safe thing to count on,esp as it still has ventilation around the whole pile for that period.

    If Im wrong Id like to know.
     
  8. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Hi, Kevin,

    yes, I understand the 2-pit situation. I've had a composting toilet for 5 years, I've dealt with this stuff in all its forms. It may have been there for 2 years, but it takes very high temperatures over a very long time under much more controlled circumstances to kill pathogens, and that pit situation isn't hot enough. Leaf mold breaks it down, but it's not at high temperatures. A dark pit in damp earth, even with one little fan, is at best a slow composting setup, and that never can attain high temperatures. It's not being stirred, it's getting deeper and deeper without any increased aeration.

    Because we are meat eaters, and because we have certain bacteria in our insides, it is very different stuff.

    It probably won't smell, and it probably will be unrecognizable, but always....always remember that it contains pathogens that are harmful to us. Even sewer gases can be harmful to us. Get as much air around it as you can.

    If you notice in the Mother Earth News plan the barrel is a fine-mesh screen. That makes sure that there are no large particles in the end pile. Mesh also aerate things, as well as makes sure that lowest pile has the driest possible deposits. A pallet will fill in, in a month of 4 people using it.

    Also, make sure no mice get in there because they love to run all over it, use the paper for nests that they bring outside of the pit and spread bacteria around. And if mice are in there, so are snakes, so be sure every little way in is sealed.

    Even so, spending time hauling that huge pile in a wheelbarrow? On tarps? to somewhere where it needs to be buried, that's not a fun time.

    I am absolutely in favor of composting wastes, but they are serious substances, so it's important to understand everything you are dealing with. If this were a really safe way for humans to deal with human waste, we wouldn't need municipal waste sytems. It's not entirely safe, so do be careful.
     
  9. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    These are a few of the pathogens involved in composting human waste:

    Salmonella typhi = Typhoid
    Salmonella paratyphi = Paratyphoid fever
    Leptospira = Leptospirosis
    Yersinia = Yersiniosis
    Escherichia coli = Diarrhea
    Worms - Disease
    Schistosoma haematobium - schistosomiasis
    Tuberculosis


    Here's a good site that talks about composting human waste.

    https://www.weblife.org/humanure/chapter7_8.html

    Remember that the findings being cited are using words like "likely" and "usually". Waste is "in" the soil, not "on" it. We can't know for sure that our own situation will always, 100% of the time conform to these findings.

    And when one pit may not be contributed to for a year, the one right next to it is live and uncomposted, and bricks or block walls haven't so far ever stopped bacteria.

    These pits will eventually leach into ground water, so be careful that it's not "upstream" from your water system, nor a neighbor's who is in the line of flow of ground water from you. :)
     
  10. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    But you do have to remember that these diseases and their "offspring" don't normally live in the body of most people (with the exception of normal E. coli), and thus aren't being deposited in the compost of the toilet.

    I believe that all of the pathogens you listed are serious medical problems -- no one is going to have them without knowing it. I can see a possible problem with the use of a public composting toilet, but not in a family one.

    Diseases aren't spontaneously generated, they come from somewhere. If you've got a Typhoid Mary in the family, the chances are pretty good that you would know about it.

    Sue
     
  11. Snake

    Snake Junior Member

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    Great Reference for composting toilets

    Kevin,

    If you have not already done so, the reference that SweetPea has pointed to on the web is very worthwhile - Joe Jenkins Humanure Handbook. He has spent a lot of time researching the pathogen issue and goes into it in a very readable and readily understandable way - he coined the term "fecophobia" for those people who are absolutely unable to deal with the issue of composting human wastes and spend their time quoting the hazards and problems and difficulties with the process. You are correct in pointing out that any composting process requires intervention; for the 2 chamber process it is that the pile needs to be raked flat occasionally but the intervention basically stops when the chamber is full and you start using the second chamber, until you have filled the second chamber and the first should then be OK to empty.

    One very important aspect that Jenkins highlights in his book is that almost all of the commercially available systems eliminate the urine from the process. This aspect is important becasue the urine contains very high levels of nitrogen, essential to the composting process - it will happen without it, but the correct 30:1 (or there-abouts) carbon:nitrogen ratio is what leads to high temperature composting (thermophilic) that leads to the demise of any nasties in the pile. Jenkins suggests (and this is the approach I'm keen to take) pre-charging the pile with a high carbon source such as straw, that can absorb the urine and allow it to contribute to the process; it will break down in size during so it should not mean that the chamber fills too quickly.

    There is much more information in Jenkins - I bought my copy direct from him on-line, having sampled the book on-line. If you can, get a copy before you make a decision. Ater all, it pays to be informed about such things - and at least you are not just flushing the problem away with scarce drinking water so that it is a problem for someone else to sort out!

    Cheers,

    Mark
     
  12. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Mark, thank you for the info that Jenkinss method is okay with urine. That is one thing that puzzled me when I read about the commercial systems. A lot of people dilute their urine and add it to their compost pile, so I was wondering why the commercial compost toilets kept insisting that you couldn't include urine.

    I guess I'll simply have to get Jenkins' book!

    Sue
     
  13. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I can only imagine that Sweetpeas shit just isn't composting properly. He/she definitely has more experience than me, after five years of composting toiletry, but I have emptied composting toilets on occaisions and found it no better or worse than moving most other kinds of finished compost around... The one occaision I remember most clearly was a very primitive and excellent system where we emptied 5 gallon buckets into one of those dalek style bins where the lid screws on tight and the bottom is open to the soil. We would empty the wood shavings and poo into one dalek until it was full (took about 6 months) and then started filling a new dalek. By the time the new one was full, the old one was finished and it was light, black fluffy compost that we had no problem 'barrowing off to the flower garden. Of course, we washed our hands after completing the job, but it really wasn't bad at all. In fact, I think I was quite delighted with the experience!
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I want everyone to be safe. I am only trying to be a reminder, here, that when dealing with Big Piles of end product, there is no way to know for sure whether the pathogens have survived or not. They're microscopic, you can't see them. Things can look completely composted, have no disgusting smell and still have living organisms in there that are harmful. Using the additives doesn't guarantee in any way that the temperature ever gets high enough (150 degrees) through the whole pile -- and it will be a big pile after a year -- to kill what lives in there.

    My husband got a terrible infection in his hand when he was working on our old pit-style outhouse. He didn't know he had a cut on his hand which made him vulnerable, and he had worn gloves and washed thoroughly, but it required almost 2 months of antibiotics.

    I think there are some things we should be cautious and respectful of on this planet, like lightning, rattlesnakes, avalanches, not eating moldy fruits and vegetables, and handling composted human waste. I'm just saying, it's important to not be casual about it, and handle it safely because it's not worth the risk. And the smaller the pile, the better composted it will be :)

    Sue, in a family of 4 there are times in the year when one or more of them will have diarrhea. They will be contributing probably twice as much as everyone else does to that pile depositing whatever pathogen caused it into that pit. And often when one family member gets something, others do too.

    People from all over the world are reading this column, and there are different kinds of bacteria, viruses everywhere, in the water, in pork, in comingling body fluids. Visitors to your house will contribute to that pile, you have no idea what might be going on with them, they might have just traveled from Russia or exotic place and they've got a bug in their system for months. My father came back from a trip like that and spent way too many hours in the bathroom. Where else are they going to go? Yes, you'll know that they're sick, it's not like you can send them out to someplace else to go.

    But I think it's important to be realistic about it all, and be cautious.
     
  15. Meridian

    Meridian Junior Member

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    Be very careful

    Regarding safety, there's the following review of the Humanure book on Amazon from a microbiogist:

     
  16. cammikins55

    cammikins55 New Member

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    Finally a testimonial that tells the truth. We too researched the web sites and settled on the Environlet Waterless Self Contained System. The number one and overall problem I think is the design. Oh, it looks nice and even looks like it's got good capacity but wait, everything drops straight down and as Sweetpea pointed out, you end up with a mound inches from your backside. There is a rake bar to handle this but it does little to push it out of the way or deposit it evenly through out the system. In fact, it tends to pull it all forward and then it gets pushed to the sides. Eventually, you find you can't move the rake bar because the wads of toilet paper have turned into paper maiche. I have become know as "latrine queen" as I am constantly standing over the bowl with a stick, trying to distribute the waste in a manner that keeps it at a level people feel comfortable with. This was a troubleshooting method suggested by Sancor.

    We have also experienced a real problem with liquids failing to evaporate. I don't know if it is condensation as Sancor claims or overuse. Doesn't matter because, it should not be happening. We never have have a capacity crowd using it and we have taken all measures to stop the condensation which meant a further investment for insulating the pipes and putting up a wind turbine. Too often I have opened the drawer to empty the composted material and have been faced with a slurry overflowing the sides. This eventually meant the investment of a wet dry vacuum. On three occassions I was forced to scoop out the waste from the top and then try to find a place to dispose of it. Naturally, one of their observations was that we did not put in a drain pit. To which I responded, it was not called for, the toilet is suppose to be self sustaining.

    I have been back and forth with the company and since there is a lifetime warranty have threatened to send it back - FULL! They in turn have blamed us possibly using the wrong products as they can see we have not placed yearly orders with them. I agree, all the extra products are not needed if you can keep it stirred but, how many want to babysit a toilet. I do it for the convenience of others and when I'm not around, no one knows how to maintain the darn thing.

    I believe we are into our fourth year and now the heater is out so, I have to look into getting that fixed. Doubt it will be as easy as "the works in the drawer" advertising would have us believe.

    Since the system was meant to used at our cabin on a seasonal basis eventually we were forced to get one of those systems they use at construction sites. Have to admit, it's cute. Made of molded plastic it has a northwoods look about it; from the faux grained framing to the moon in the door. Capacity is 63 gallons so we have to have it emptied but, as the septic guys do it, it's much easier then the composting toilet. Much more sanitary also. Natch, it was another investment of $600.

    Thanks for letting me have my rant and, you haven't heard it all - I'm sure.

    Sure would love to hear others horror stories involving Sancor's Environlet Systems. Also like to know what is the most loved system.
     
  17. TropicalRose

    TropicalRose Junior Member

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    We use a Nature Loo weekender system at our block but on septic closer to town. Thanks for all the useful info both on how composting toilets work or don't work and to be more careful handling the waste. We are finding the waste doesn't break down before it has to be emptied but to be fair we also don't have a fan hooked up yet because the electricity is not connected yet. The point about the urine might be part of the problem too?
     
  18. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    cammikins, interesting to hear you've got many of the same problems.

    one way to avoid that slurry is to increase your carbon by using at least 1 Cup of packed leaf litter, or broken up straw, or dead grass or weeds mowed into small pieces with each deposit, maybe every other urine deposit. Peat moss works, but I guess that's hurting the planet these days. But that makes the rake useless, too much bulk for it to move, not that it helped in the first place!!

    I have changed how I use it, I took it apart and installed a tumbler in it. After all, we know how to compost, and it's no different that regular compost, so why I fell for the rake idea, I'll never know!!!

    I think it's almost false advertising for them to hide the crucial information that you have to buy extra stuff from them at expensive prices. Even then I question that it would work well.

    Sun Mar is supposedly the most reliable one. They even have pretty good sales.
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    tropical rose,

    you can buy a wind turbine to fit onto the top of the vent pipe that will keep it vented that is all we did, also if you paint the turbine and the top say .5 mter of the pipe black that will heat the air inside the pipe and cause an upward draught of air from the loo.

    we used the full sizes n/l and reckon it can't be beat for versatility, the composting happens just as well with composting worms in the bins, i've heard many issues with those whiz bang fancy doo datts and the carousel model too has problems, but good ole n/l simple and versatile.

    len
     
  20. cammikins55

    cammikins55 New Member

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    Sweetpea,

    Thanks for the feedback. May have to check out some of your suggestions though I give it little hope as we have been following Sancors instructions by adding a quarter cup of chips, etc. since the get go but, maybe it's not producing the carbon needed??

    Can't believe you have gone so far as to put a tumbler in and can't imagine the hassle or how you would go about doing that, but when you put out a couple grand for a toilet I understand the need to find a solution. I see now they have an IN LINE VENT FAN to increase preformance which tells me the excess liquid is an on going complaint from their customers. Think I may try Gardenlen's suggestion of painting the pipe black even though we have an abundance of shade (another excuse Sancor tried to turn into "my fault")

    Really, the rake system is ridiculous. The aerator bar does little but bring it forward and the bottom rake on ours is practically unmovable and you know what kind of leverage you have. Yes we too have had to anchor the system and still it's a two person job to "rake it down".

    I too have bemoaned the fact that we didn't go with Sun Mar but my brother did the shopping and don't know what really directed him to Sancor other than their advertising and couldn't agree more that it's false advertising - or, borders on it. I know I have written them some very printable letters regarding our experiences with the self contained system but, you won't see one in their "testimonials".

    It's obvious to me after talking to Sancor reps, that they have heard it all before as they were very quick to troubleshoot the problems by telling me I needed to insulate, get a turbine, use a wood or metal stick to distribute "mass", etc. The only one they ever stumbled on was the threat to send it back "as is". If only the U.S. and Canadian postal systems would allow it.
     

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