Avocados.

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by mischief, Jan 14, 2010.

  1. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Twelve years ago my grand mother gave me an Avocado seedling she had grown.
    I dutifully planted it in the front yard and promptly forgot about it, after all it doesnt fruit for years.
    It has been flowering now for the last 5 years that I have noticed but never set fruit.
    This year I did alittle research on the subject and decided to get some more trees even though it can be quite frosty here.
    I had enough room to plant 3 along the bank within 5 metres of the existing tree using a high density planting method that sounds alot like just heavy summer pruning to keep the trees short and or espaliered.
    This area has tall Rhododendrons growing slightly behind them which I hope will give the new trees abit of frost protection.

    I found out that Avocados being a forest tree like a slightly acid soil with lots of surface mulch as well as compost etc dug into there soil.
    This was a good excuse to buy a soil tester so I got one that showed the moisture levels as wellas PH and light.
    Just about all my soil is just on or just under PH7.
    I was told it would be safer if they had a PH of 6.5 but I'm not too worried about this as the existing tree is also growing in the same ph with lttle problems and doesnt have alot of mulch at all.It does have Really free draining soil which is supposed ro be important too.

    Because I love Avocados as do my family and most of my friends....got enough to do two more plantings in groups of 3 and 4 with diferent varieties in each group and with both type A and B to insure thatt I get a good pollenation rate.
    These are all grafted trees which means they will take alot less time to start fruiting.In fact I was offered a tree that was fruiting but decided against it.

    I'm having to wait before I plant out the rest because where I want to group them I have something else there at the moment and have to wait till it cools down before I can move those first.

    The original tree was planted underneath a taller tree that is no long there and I am assuming that it got the frost protection it needed as a young tree and as it doesnt have that same protection now, that it is of a Mexican type that is supposed to be alittle hardier than the Guatamalan varieties.So I will be double checking which is to go where when the time comes to plant the rest out as one area has alittle more protection than the other.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mischief,

    keep us informed on any fruiting the seedling may do, i have one growing very well in a pot just to try and see what happens, much information is variable from them not fruiting at all through poor quality fruit to producing true to form. if nothing else you will have a good strong root stock and so you could always try a graft from one of you other trees or someone elses tree.

    len
     
  3. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    The man I bought them from is promoting the high density planting method and said these will start fruiting within the next 18 months as they are grafted from older specimens.
    He reccommended planting them in a circle of no more than 3 metres diameter to ensure good pollination of all of them.
    By summer pruning the vegetative growth hard, making sure that every three years the fruiting arms are replaced with new ones and mulching regularly with manure,shredded bark and compost regularly thru the growing season and keeping well watered(allowing alittledry out time inbetween),they should stay well fed and sort of mimic the natural forest growing conditions.

    The first lot I have planted are not in a circle but a line with the old existing tree at one end. It does spread out alittle and is quite tall.
    I have planted type A at each end and a type B in the middle which should work and hopefully will be enough to pollinate the older tree as well.
    I dug out the soil to make a hole for each and dug in a bag of old horse manure full of pine shavings which hopefully will lower the ph and have a huge amount of shreded tree mulch over this.
    He really stressed making sure the soil was very free draining to the point of planting them on mounds even with the pine mulch dug into the soil.
    As the first lot are on a bank I havent planted on mounds because I think that would make them too dry even with a covering mulch.

    Because we have in the past had frosts down to minus 10 (the odd one) and often have minus 3-6 I am being very careful as to where I plant them.
    I was going to do a circle on the other side of the driveway but realised that this would be a mistake due to no frost protection.
    I have two other places in the vege garden area that will suit and they will fit with this system, but the chooks need to go in one area first and there is an Olive tree in the other area (not doing well so Iwill move it out. I had a choice of removing it completely last year or trying to transplant it)

    The other thing he said was that Avocados could be espaliered like other trees given the right growing condtions which might be of interest to others and apparently they fruit better with horizontal leaders rather than vertical ones.Thsi isnt something I have ever done before so I would need to learn how.
     
  4. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Taste the leaves of the Mexican Variety. There is supposed to be one they use as a flavoring/herb.

    This sounds like an interesting experiment
    In your research did it say Avocados needed a pollinator (2 to Tango)?

    I have grown a few Avocados from seed, but never long enough to see if anything interesting happened.

    There is an Australian Avocado Growers Group with an on-line newsletter. I did subscribe to it but it hasn't arrived as yet.

    I have heard that Avocados need lots of mulch.
    . . . .
    Persevere with the Olive. They are hardy things used to rough conditions and poor soil. perhaps thee Veggie garden is giving it too rich a life? I like olives because you can grow stuff underneath them as they let in the light. It should handle moving if you don't let it get baked./dry out.
     
  5. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Yes they have strange flowering habits.
    One type opens its flowers in the morning as female, then closes them and the next day opens in the afternoon as a male.
    The other type does the opposite.Cant remember which does which.I have a notebook, its about time I started using it.

    Because they are a forest tree they do need a very free draining soil and alot of surface mulch .
    Apparently most of their roots are in the top 15 cm which is why they also need to be well watered( with a dry out time in between)
    I was told that if you are planting on clay then it you need to dig out a large hole and mix the soil with sand and pine mulch (to lower the ph )and if it is not being planted on a slope then a little trench would be a good idea to make sure the hole did not fill up with water and cause root rot.

    My existing tree did take about 5-7 years to flower and is now 20' or so high.
    If you have mature trees growing in your area then getting a cutting from that to graft onto your seedlings would shorten your wait time.

    It would be interesting to visit a sub/ tropical rainforest just to see what the mulch is like.... if anyone lives in a rainforest would you be interested in taking a walk for me and fossick around the trees to look at the state of the different layers down to soil level?

    With regards to the Olives, yes they are worth persevering with even just for the leaves.I gave mine to my mum when we transplanted them for tea as she wasnt very well and she did use them even asked for more saying it made a nice tea(she is a coffee-head).
    Unfortunately when I had to transplant I didnt have alot of time or options to decide for them so they probably are not in the best of positions.I have the Leccino planted north of the El Greco as this is the direction the early spring winds tend to mainly come from and have an arm load of old hedge branches on the sun side od the saddest tree to stop the soil from baking.
    I think that if I do need to move them again this winter the roots should take the knock better than the last time cos there wont be such large long roots to cut thru they should be mainly around the root ball( I hope) otherwise I will have to get new ones.

    I will go out and tast a leaf just for you.
     
  6. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Any time. I wonder if Australian Coastal rainforests are similar/same as to American ones?
    Yes, agreed, they have a lot of medicinal uses including lowering hih BP

    LOL Tar.
    Soon people will wonder about all these strange people munching on Avocado leaves
    This is the variety
    Here is a web site that discussed it
    https://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Articles/Exotic-Herbs-Spices-and-Salts-639/avocado-leaves.aspx

    Hoja Santa is a plant/herb that I need to add to my already 2-lifetime long, "wants" (needs?) list:-

    Hoja Santa (Piper auritum)
    The hoja santa (sacred leaf), hoja de la estrella (leaf of the star), or Veracruz pepper (Piper auritum Kunth) has a native range from ...
    www.killerplants.com/plant-of-the-week/20041213.asp
     
  7. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Well to be honest the leaves didnt taste all that great.
    I checked out the existing tree my gran gave me as well as a little of each of the others.
    They do have a flavour but I'm not sure how I could discribe it,vaguely unpleasant comes to mind.
    Interesting that they are used as flavourings for Tamales, these are supposed to be a popular snack over there.
    Maybe they would be better dry.
    Perhaps they could be used in the smoke house, they would obviously be safe to use.
     
  8. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Eating leaves

    I think it is a Specific Variety that has the flavour. I have not found such a tree in Australia, and it seems they are uncommon outside Mexico.
    The Mexicans always seem to find a use for most plants. I heard that a USA nurseyman developed a new, indoor ornamental plant. When marketed in Mexico, three weeks after its introduction, the Mexicans were fermenting, driyng the plant and smoking it!
     
  9. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    I've no experience growing avos but bought 4 plants recently for planting around my place. I bought 2 hass, a fuerte and a edranol. The Hass are type A and the others are type B. Only the Fuerte comes with the suggestion that it be planted with a type A for better fruit set. Given that home gardenners like most of us are going to buy a few varieties to try and extend the fruiting season, I'm not sure how well the A and B thing goes anyway unless the A & B are same time of year fruiters. I'm affraid that although I considered the A & B thing and made sure I got both, I didn't think at the time about making sure an A and B were fruiting/flowering at the smae time.

    As for planting distance, I was a bit shocked when I research recommended spacings and found out how far away they were menat to be from each other (like 8 metres absolute minimum). This limited my options for planting, hence I have only got around to planting 2 so far and am still trying to find spots for the other 2. Having said that I too have been considering planting more closely and just keeping on top of the size through hard pruning.
     
  10. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Google High density planting.
    The person I bought mine of is promoting this concept.
    His website is avopro.org and has links to others.
    He also told me to plant Fuerte with Haas as this for some reason helps the Haas have smaller stones.
     
  11. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Thanks for the links, Mischief. We have recently purchased a property which has some 200 avocado trees on it. The trees are planted in rows about 6 meters apart. The rows themselves are widely spaced.

    About a third have been stumped and will not bear for 2-3 years. Any fruit that does set on the stumped trees has a tendency to get sunburnt and fall off.

    At the moment the property is completely grass and trees. We spend hours every week mowing, and it is particularly time consuming as we have to weave around the trees.

    We were watching the food forest DVD and thinking about some kind of companion planting in order to have the trees growing in hedgerows, so they can be shaded during rejuvenation. This would mean we would only have to mow in rows, which would save a huge amount of time as well. Additionally we have read that mulching avocado trees greatly reduces the risk of root rot.

    Does anyone know if it would be viable to convert established avocado trees into hedeerows?
     
  12. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    My first thought was why dont you plant pumpkin or melons either between the plants or every other row.
    Ground cover and cash crop.
    Afew mounds of manure and plant into it (and leave to do its thing?).
    I was told that Avocados can be espaliered and was given the impression that they grow just as well or better on horizontal branches so I would understand from this that that would be a sort of 'hedgerowing'.
    It was really stressed that feeding them really well during the growing seasons and mulching heavily, he kept saying mulch them as well as watering.
    I was asked if I was an organic gardener(am sort of if I dont look too closely at whats in stable sweeping I guess) but wasnt offered the fertilizer he uses and sells.

    The plants I have bought are grafted.
    How low were your trees stumped?
    I'm not sure I understand why someone would do that, are they quite old?
    They might need abit of shade while they are growing up again what about intercropping with something tall?
     
  13. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    They were stumped to about 6 feet, and most are now growing back. Before that they would have been very tall. I suspect they weren't producing as well and were stumped to bring back thicker growth. I'll take some photos tomorrow so you can see the property. We have about 22 rows of trees over 5 acres. There is a lot of space between the trees and we want to plant between them to maximize harvest as well as cut down on maintenance.
     
  14. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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  15. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Wow those must have been quite tall and I would imagine quite hard to harvest from.

    Hope you keep us posted on what you decide to do with and around them and how it all goes.
     
  16. kaviare

    kaviare Junior Member

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    You guys have inspired me to plan avos! I had sort of assumed I wouldn't get a good crop here in Adelaide, but I did some more hunting and you know what they say about assumption! Lovely. They're shallow rooted, it seems, maybe I can shove them in around my planned mandala, between/abutting the trees around the edge. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

    That does look like a painful area to mow, mungbeans. How about a ground cover - maybe a native, or else something like nasturtiums? I'm just a newbie, so there may be reasons that wouldn't be a good idea?

    The avopro site doesn't want to work for me - is anyone in Australia doing that? I'd love to have avos sooner than later.
     
  17. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    A living mulch sounds like a good idea. Nasturtiums are very hardy and snails love them. We make too little use of leaves and flowers as food--apparently seeds are nice roasted too.

    Then, if if the tree is near your dunny, you might like to try the velvet-leaved-peppermint-geranium which sprawls along the ground. ;)
     
  18. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Kaviare,
    Google 'high density planting'.
    That should give you some reallygood advise on growing Avocados in a small space.
    As far as I can see its a matter of getting Mexican varieties (supposed to be more cold resistant) and pruning.

    I have the velvet leaved peppermint geranium on my shopping list.
    One of my neighbhours has avelvety leaved thing I have been meaning to get a cutting or seed from, it doesnt smell like anything tho.
    Must go and check it out.
     
  19. dannyboy

    dannyboy Junior Member

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    Mungbeans, would you consider grazing animals on that rather healthy looking grass? i've no experience in such things myself (but hope to one day) but surely it'd be less work and more poop?
     
  20. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    We would have to put up fencing around the property. At the moment none of the boundaries are fenced.

    The expanse of grass is a problem only because of the time it takes to mow. We use up petrol for the rideon at an incredible rate. This is why we would like to get the trees arranged into mulched rows.

    We are going to select a couple of rows and experiment with the dwarfing rootstock and see if high density plantings might work.
     

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