Aquaponics is fast becoming essential...

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Jez, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    But why?
     
  2. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    I don't get it Rainbow...you resurrected this thread three days after it was first posted, and proceeded (by your own admission) to change the topic to something other than what was intended, then above you're complaining about the topic being lost in discussion...apparently oblivious to the fact it was you who changed the topic from your first post...and that everyone is generally including your diversion of topic into the wider discussion.

    Excuse me if I'm getting a little lost by this stage... :lol:

    My only intention was to discuss how Aquaponics is capable of replacing the harvests brought in through commercial fishing - which are clearly unsustainable. You've stated that you don't believe that is possible because the efficiency of Aquaponics is questionable, others are trying to show you that it is possible because its a highly efficient system with universal application.

    Is that 'banging away at you' or being a "firing squad?"

    I can't see it in that light...

    "Same mob?" Who is this mob? What exactly IS your difference of opinion? (I still don't know whether you're talking about your own little piece of the world or all of Australia when you ask questions like "Would aquaponics be as essential in Aus, if people actually created permanent aquacultural environments in existing water catchments?"

    Who is 'fighting' anything? People are putting forth sound reasons why Aquaponics has distinct advantages over other systems (both Aquaculture and crop production among them) and you are seemingly ignoring them...(as is your perfect right I might add)...


    Yes... :lol:

    One more time...it uses around 1/10th of the water used to raise crops by conventional methods. It's not about fish alone - it's a much bigger picture...highly productive, sustainable grow beds and security...none of which you can get from conventional Aquaculture (in a tank, a catchment, or the ocean) or traditional cropping methods.

    Finally, FWIW, if I am the mysterious "someone" who suggested you "oppose" Aquaponics...I would ask you to read back and see that what I said was


    ...I still can't see how anyone could draw any other conclusion? You use loaded terms and discuss the benefits of 'natural systems' every time you talk about Aquaponics, in a manner that seems dismissive and condescending...which I imagine is where Sue has a problem (sorry Sue if I'm reading you wrong on that). Whether you intend it to or not, that's how it comes out sounding...

    I like you Rainbow, I think you're a valuable contributor most of the time who brings good things to the forum for the purpose of helping others out - and I'm sure most people here also have the same respect for you. I'm not trying to get at you in any way, I am only attempting to justify my enthusiasm for the future universal applications of Aquaponics...I'm sure others are doing the same.

    Reading the thread, it is clear that you did have quite a few misconceptions about Aquaponics which people have taken the time to clear up (as you would yourself on a subject you have some knowledge of)...maybe it has actually been a constructive discussion if you can get around to viewing it in that light?
     
  3. Guest

    Sorry Jez, took the girls out for a few hours, and I have the feeling there are probably a few hanging on this (maybe hoping there will be some more drama?)

    Not so.

    Yes, I did realise that, and I was simply adding another option. One I considered also essential. Somehow though, the whole thread seems to have turned into an aquaponics marketing campaign and we were unable to actually discuss it much past me trying to present where I am coming from. (ie my environment)

    Nevermind. It seems the way round here...

    Only yesterday, I was thinking how good it was to all be laughing on the board again, with folks who are just having a go at the lifestyle and doing their best, and sharing what they can as they go. There were laughing emoticons everywhere. Weird how things can literally change overnight.

    I have made no attempt to hide my naturalist perspective on this board. I think I have shared it willingly, alongside my life, research, progress and experiences. I think people are getting to know me when I share things and maybe understand where I am coming from...maybe that is niave.

    I never once disagreed with you, Jez. I presented you with my initial interpretation of your suggestion, which you corrected. I was presenting a concept that differed from yours - yes - but I did that in the interests of our discussion. If we were sitting on my verandah and talking about it, I doubt it would have ended up anything like this. But here on my verandah there would not be people throwing in argumentative commentary and taking sides as soon as we began discussing something. We'd be able to talk about it and both learn from each other.

    I learned a lot about the benefits of aquaponics and thank those who offered it. I doubt anyone learned too much about living aquatic environments, but maybe if they are interested, they might look into it.

    I think Corny is right. There really is lots to do in the real world, and things here really have just gone beyond reasonable.

    Goodbye
     
  4. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    RF,

    I can see that you feel in the spotlight now over a misunderstanding, and I know how frustrating that can be. I don't think anyone here wished you bad feelings, but you did push a few buttons.

    For what its worth, I have no problem with you, and my enthusiasm for aquaponics :wav: is my motivation for contributing to this thread. I have been hoping that we, you and I, and them, Floot and Jeff, can move forward, and that this forum will not be a place of contentious issues. I am surprised that, somehow, aquaponics has become contentious.

    You see a mob, but there is no mob. This thread was about the role that aquaponics can/may/will/could/should play in the future to address the issues identified in the NYTimes article. Aquaponics :wav: was suggested with justifiable enthusiasm by Jez, and supported everyone by here, except for you.

    Noone is against pond based aquaculture, but as was discussed here, there are some serious advantages to aquaponics :wav: that soil based cultivation and pond based aquaculture do not have, notably the reduced usage of water (%90 less), the non erosion of soil, etc, etc (all been discussed here already).

    We, for example, we have decided that because of budget constraints related to solar systems and some infrastructure, the aquaponics system we had hoped to build in March will be post poned and a pond will be built, instead. The original proposal we got fundng for included a pond, and we had hoped to change it, but the solar system would add on about USD4-6000 to the cost of an aquaponics system... and we simply have too many other commitments to juggle the funding without seriously altering our original stated outcomes, so we will, most regrettably and unfortunately, be building a pond, instead.

    I do, however, hope to build an aquaponics set up around that pond in lieu of small tanks for fish, some day.... and hopefully sooner than later...

    This thread isn't an aquaponics :wav: ad campaign, though I have made jokes about operators standing by, etc, but that is simply me being silly. This thread started out about the role aquaponics can play in the future, and if you act now, operaters will gratefully accept your money orders.... :lol: .

    I do shamelessly promote aquaponics, and I hope Joel sells a million or two of his books. I want this to happen, not for a kick back for me, and not for a percentage of the money I hope he makes (which would be nice), but because I believe in what he has designed, especially the small scale size of his application suitable for places with dense populations (not here on our farm, yet :lol: ), will make the world a better place. Also, I don't know Joel well, but what I know tells me he is a really, really nice guy, and I want him to receive showers of blessings and to succeed at making a good living with his knowledge and enthusiasm for aquaponics :wav: .

    I would be happy if he made 4 million dollars from this, because that would mean a lot of systems getting built, which I think is a good thing. Also because if Joel made a pile of money from this, which he should because it is so brilliant, he would be able to buy a nice place in the country somewhere, tinker around with aquaponics some more, and plant trees and have a garden, chooks, ducks and/or goats, like you do and I do (except for the goats, but, soone come!) etc.

    You and I are both blessed with acreages of land that are substantial and allow us to have elbow room, pee in our front yard, make mistakes with plants, or not, run experiments, etc, and live nicely. Joel doesn't, yet, and he should. He lives in a suburb in Perth, as you know, yet his small back yard out produces the equivalant space in my land and I suspect (but accept I could be wrong!) your land, too, in productivity, which is an incredible achievement!

    I hope that aquaponics :wav: will be an avenue he can take to get him self to that place that you and I, metaphorically, share, out here, out there, on a piece of land with some substantial acreage, no noise, room to plant, room to grow, etc, etc, etc.

    Many of the people who used to post here no longer do so, many have fled, and I walked away for a very short time, myself. I have communicated with several people who are simply gone, and they find two or three people here to be very mean spirited and aggressive, and feel that less and less is devoted to permaculture here.... Where are the people who left? Not here, anymore. I found some comfort, along with some others, at the other forum, but I like this one, too, and I hate to see it dieing.

    Like you, I like the laughing emoticons, too, and, especially, my little buddies doing the wave over, um, (pssst, you guys ready? "Yeah, guv, hang on a minute.."), the, uh ("Okay, we is ready..") aquaponics system :wav: .

    I have been trying for some time to avoid conflict with anyone, and I hope you do not include me in this mob that you see, because I am not against you at all! I suspect that in fact, you and I are not that different. I suspect that we both live pretty well, eating good food, focusing on our farms, off somewhere, on our own land. Probably most of what you eat comes from your land, and we are the same way. You and I both seem to have problems walking away from disagreements (are you of Irish background like me and my buddy, Jeff? And, if you think I'm bad, never have a disagreement with my dad, the human pitbull.... :lol: ).

    I am making a peace offering: Let us both work towards bringing back the peacefullness and good feelings that were here before... Lets focus on permaculture, on sustainability issues, on our interpretations or what makes the liuves we live worth living! If I see someone saying Round Up is a good thing, I will simply not post on that thread... even if I think it is wrong for a lot of reasons. If you see a thread about Aquaponics :wav: , and you don't agree that aquaponics :wav: is a great thing, then don't post about it. Please DO open a thread and post about the wonders of pond based aquaculture, many of us are interested since that is applicable to many people here, including me (and I am going to build an aquaponics system using the pond, too! :lol: )!

    I look forward to seeing your name in pixels,

    Sincerely, warmly, and with great respect,

    Christopher
     
  5. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    AQuaponics as I see it .......

    If your really serious about health................Aquaponics

    If your serious about the envioroment..........Aquaponics

    If you got more then half a brain .................Aquaponics

    Tezza
     
  6. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    I'm really sorry you feel that way Rainbow and yes, you're right, I'm sure we would have wonderful conversations in person which we would both enjoy...or I know I would.

    :(

    I hope you find your way back here after a rest...
     
  7. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Sue in WA,

    Please help me out here. I think we have lost RF, which is her own choice. Your postings are your choice.

    I am at a loss, but I cannot find where RF made this statement:
    ON THIS THREAD.


    I have done my own humble searches and probably need assistance.
    Sue you posted that as a 'perspective' and then clobbered RF on 'hers'.
    I have no idea who runs the 'edits' here but am I missing something or were you totally off-line with your invective.

    I have enjoyed your insights as well as RF's. I in no way have adopted a 'side'.

    Perhaps I need one more clear-thinking than I who, can post the error of my perspective. As one who wears his heart on his sleeve, this is a thin sleeve, I will not resile from that.

    Anyway, enough said, Sue-help me out here. Was this an excerpt from this thread or a cheap shot. Are you aware of 'strawman fallacies' and their misuse?

    This is not a response, it is a reasonable question.

    [damn] floot
     
  8. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Sigh.

    The first quotation comes from Christopher, previous page, posted Dec. 27, 5:05 a.m., 9th paragraph, and was a tongue-in-cheek response to his enthusiasm. I was being FACETIOUS, if it was something less than obvious. :oops:

    Sue
     
  9. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Floot, are you familiar with the term 'devil's advocate'?

    Tam
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    There was an article a week ago in the NYTimes about declining fisheries. The article reminded me of Jez's initial post in this thread last year.

    https://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F50711F73D5A0C778DDDA80994DE404482

    The jist of the article is:
    which paints a bl;eak picture. I think aquaponice :wav: is becoming increasingly important, and more viable as the alternatives dry up.
     
  11. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    Buying fish in the shop I always thought about overfishing but never of fuel cost. One problem more. I love seafood! Aquaponics might be good but a saltwaterfish tastes different like a freshwater fish and health authoratys (don't know how to spell) saying that you should eat saltwaterfish once weekly.
    the problem is as well how fish is seved. People consume a lot of fish in junk products like fish finger fish burgers etc. instead of makink fishsoups (with the heads ) and cooking the fish in a normal way. It is wasting something precious. In supermarkets only very rarely whole fish is sold only fillets. People get used to see only the product and awy of thinking.

    Besides overfishing - windpower is producing a lot of electicity yet (not in Australia) why not using windpowe for fisher boats as well? Consturction modern windpowered boats?
     
  12. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    Christopher touched on a point earlier, about feeding the fish. I think this hasn't come up much in the discussions of aquaponics. It stands to reason that each kg of fish grown in your tanks requires at least a kg of feed, and probably four or five. Where do you get the feed from? Grain pellets?

    So instead of burning oil to go and catch wild fish, we're using oil to fertilise, pesticise (cool word, eh? I just made it up), process and transport the grain feed to give to fish. Is there actually a net benefit in terms of oil consumption per kg of fish produced?

    Do farmed fish convert grain to meat any more efficiently than cattle or sheep or pigs?

    How much work has been done on more efficient systems, where the fish ponds have edible plants and algae, or where perhaps the growing beds have plants fish can eat?

    I stress that I ask these questions from a position of practical ignorance. I don't know a thing about the day-to-day running of an aquaponics system. But looking at the general principles of it, so far it looks to me like the "no dig gardens", or the "break up natural gas to get hydrogen" idea of CSIRO - you have to import a lot of fertility or energy from somewhere else to keep it going, you're not using things more efficiently, you're just putting the inefficiency elsewhere.

    Or not? Educate me! :)
     
  13. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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  14. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Jimbob has hit the nail on the head there regarding the "feed cycle" (like that term? I think I just made it up...) BUT, you don't have to buy grain to feed your fish.
    If you look at those classic line drawings in Bill's Permaculture textbooks you have the poultry housed over the ponds so that the manure drops in and feeds the water plants from phytoplankton on up to duckweeds and so on that the fish eat, the plants also provide habitat for crustraceans and other aquatic invertebrates... Then there are the fruit trees planted around the edge that drop fruit, sometimes infested with insect larvae etc...
    I have been feeding my tilapia a lot guava lately. Guava grows like a weed here, (so good!) so for the last couple of months that has been the mainstay of their diet. I also throw them HonoHono grass (commelina to you non Hawaiians) as often as I can think of it, and they devour it entirely before it has a chance to sink. I have planted some Ipomea aquatica (ungchoi, or kangkong - a relative of the sweet potato that is high in protein) at the edge of the pond, I'm hoping that this will colonise the banks and the fish can self serve, you know. Occaisionally I pull worms and larvae out of the nearby worm farm. They love that. As the worm farm population increases I will be able to feed more that way.
    I realise that a small tank system is a little different to a pond aquaculture, but I would think that you can still cultivate an ecology on that scale, so that you could raise quite a bit of fish without buying into industrially produced grain. Its all about connecting all the dots, getting the functions and uses of the various elements in your system to compliment each other. These systems might not be as "productive" as industrial fish farms, the fish might grow a little more slowly, but then the fish are just one element of the system, and you're not going default on your mortgage if it takes 6 weeks longer to get the fish to table size. And they'll taste better and so on.
    Comparing aquaponics to commercial fish farming is a bit like comparing the bicycle with an SUV. I know which one I would rather ride. :D
     
  15. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    as a Aquaponican I can defintly say that fish generally dont need grain to grow.....Not all fish or sea food relies on grain......Some at least maybe more live off algae,Of course youll tell me that Some Aquaculturists feed grains...

    But were not talking Aquaculture are we........

    Aquaponics was refind by a "Permie in his back yard" Not in some lake..


    Grain IS used but by farmers and Aqucultions because they havent got a clue,or the inkling to find out what else they can be fed......

    How do the fish in the oceans survive????????????????? Benelavent grain growers???????........

    Water Creatures Would in my Opinion only require what is in the oceans or rivers.....

    So why on earth would someone want to fed em wheet or lupins???????

    Because SOMEONE is going to make money by selling those various crops.

    This is A permaculture Web site........

    A good Permie wouldnt need grains hed have figured out allready on their feed requirments to make them grow to an edible size
     
  16. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    There was another thread about aquaponics and feed. Using excess from some other process, by products of food processing, or using spoiled food to feed worms, maggots, insects, etc. Raising algae from the output of a biogas plant, for example, could provide the protein needed for the fish, while cleaning the water of fecal matter.

    I notice that pig or chook production is seldom questioned about what feed goes into their raising as it is assumed that this is needed. The fish in aquaponics :wav: do require food, but if there was a by product of something else that could be cycled to the fish, either as direct feed, of feed for insects, maggots or worms, then the overall efficiency of the system is raised.

    Tieing together various processes for down stream nutrient cycling and using energy flows is where aquaponics :wav: really has the potential to shine.

    Another thread from last year on complexing aquaponics :wav: systems is:

    https://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=759&highlight=triponics

    I think that aquaponics :wav: , integrated with worm raising, biogas, spirulina production, chook, duck, rabbit and goat production would make aquaponics :wav: extremely efficient.
     
  17. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    How do you fit biogas production in with aquaponics? You use the nitrogen from the fish water for your slurry for making the methane?
     
  18. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard,

    This is its own micro-organic industrial ecology of energy and nutrient flows, tied in through the aquaponics :wav: set up. The biogas plant is tied in by "external" components, like goats, pigs, chooks, ducks, and the out put, nutrient rich water, is cycled through a initial biological filter in the form of a water hyacinth bed (maybe other plants, reeds, etc) and then a spirulina tank.

     
  19. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    The value of aquaponics is that the necessary job of filtering the water, to be able to recycle it, produces a vegetable crop. It isnt generally a closed loop as the fish need inputs but it is certainly possible. Entirely a matter of choice and what balance you wish to achieve.

    What aquaponics lets us do is reliably produce fish [and vegetables] in controlled and even small areas and get excellent returns. In my situation I could catch small barra or sooty grunter and throw them into big pond and set up a live food system. Sounds good until you factor in cormorants, pelicans, water rats, monitors and sea eagles.. :shock: Now I dont know how much it costs to net a pond but all of a sudden my 'free' fish are requiring external inputs to maximise production.

    I will probably go this way because most other environmental factors are in my favour, in respect to land, water, climate etcetera but if for some reason I had to eat and reliably produce fish it would be aquaponics for certain.

    Hedwig,

    We were long told of the benefit omega 3's and the 'fact' that the best source of these was salmon and other northern hemisphere cold water species. We now know that this is not entirely true.

    Here is a link to this excellent site:https://www.ausyfish.com/omega-3.htm. The great aussie Silver Perch comes in at number 4 so we have a lot to be thankful for as the Jade & Silver Perch readily adapt to tank situations.

    floot
     
  20. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    Ausyfish are just down the road from me...will definately be grabbing some Jade Perch off of them. They're meant to grow lots faster than other types of perch but are also a bit more fiddly to grow.
     

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