Apple Theory Needs Answers, please help.

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Pakanohida, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Work with my drugs here... ((ie - work with this premise))

    I know we can raise apples from seed. That is a given, and a fact.

    I also know I will not get the same variety of apple because the pollen needed from the other types of trees are needed to make it. (if that is wrong correct me)

    Then, my hypothesis is this.

    Get both tree seeds, or all three.. and grow them all together, problem solved.

    Can it really be that simple?:giggle::shake:

    If the above doesn't hold true, would it be possible to graft apple varieties needed to make the variety desired to the tree?
     
  2. Dreamie

    Dreamie Junior Member

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    The problem is because most apples are not self fertile the seeds when cross pollinated, become a hybrid. Hybrids can be hit and miss in what the next generation turns out like. Therefore the problems is that it is extremely difficult to grow an identical apple from an apple seed however you will still get an apple tree (just with unknown properties) so if you don't care what the resultant apple tastes like then seeds are an option. If the apple grown from the seed is good or bad you will not know until you harvest it in ~5 years.

    If you want to grow a new type of apple then seeds are the way to go, but if you want an apple that is identical to what you have the best option is to do some grafting.
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    So what I am understanding is if I dry seeds from a known apple and try to use it is a genetic crap shoot as to weather or not I get similar fruit. Understandable.

    I also am understanding you favor using the apple trees and grafting known cultivars unto them. Well, this is a sticky problem for my mind to wrap around still.

    How the heck does the genetic material keep getting used safely with all this cloning? If humans keep using grafts unto whatever stock doesn't the genetic material degrade over many times being used? And what of the parent trees for fuji, honeycrisp, etc?

    Maybe it is a problem of my view. I am very inspired by a sudden civic use of heirloom apples in Boston. For more information about that here ya go. https://coquillepermaculture.blogspot.com/


    However, for me it is more then just trying to help my community ((I am far removed from Boston)). I remember as a child leaving NYC, going upstate (NY) to get apples from Orchards and road stands. So many varieties too! Apples with different flavors for cider & juice! Apples for baking, apples for this, that & a few other things. Now, I read about the problems of GMO & other things and dammit, I want to help my earth & bring back all the flavors and such of the 6500+ varieties, and help my community at the same time.

    My plan is to use apple trees, un-pruned ala Fukuoka, as the overstory; as what you said, I reckon I am going to need to graft as you said.

    I find it important, in my heart, soul and intuition to raise apples from seeds... ..not sure why at this moment.
     
  4. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Ack! Now we got a monkey wrench throw in.

    Here is a list of self-fertile apples:

    SELF-FERTILE APPLE VARIETIES:

    Acklam Russet
    Anna
    Astrachan Crab
    Beverly Hills
    Braeburn
    Braeburn Hillwell
    Beakwells Seedling (Cider)
    Brownlees Russet
    Brown Snout
    Buckley Giant
    Chehalis
    Christmas Pearmain
    Cox, Self Fertile
    Cox's Orange Pippin
    Court Pendue Plat
    Crawley Beauth
    Dorsett Golden
    Earligold
    Eddie April
    Empire
    Exquisite
    Fuji
    Fuji Red
    George Cave
    Golster
    Golden Delicious
    Golden Spire
    Gordon
    Granny Smith
    Granny Smith, Greenspur
    Grimes Golden
    Jonared
    King
    Michelin (Cider)
    Newton Pippin
    Pettingill Apple
    Pine Apple Russet of Devon
    Pink Pearl
    Red Devil
    Red McIntosh
    Red Rome
    Red Spy
    Red Windsor (Red Alkmene)
    Redsleeves
    Reverend Morgan
    Royal Jubilee
    Saint Averred
    Saturn
    Scrumptious
    Sierra Beauty
    Snow Fameuse
    Spartan
    Spitzenburg
    St Everard
    Summer Rambo
    Sunset
    Sweet Coppin (Cider)
    Winston
    Wolf River
    Yellow Delicious


    Now, if they are self-fertile, and are raised from seed... what the heck happens to the next generation?
     
  5. geoff

    geoff Junior Member

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    Self fertile means they can pollinate themselves, but with apples it's usually imperfect pollination and they produce much better crops having a different variety as the pollinator.

    A seed is like an egg, or a human baby. It requires genetic material from male and female to create a viable reproductive unit. Even when it's the same tree providing the two bits of genetic material the combination of them is still filled with randomness. Even though my brothers and I have the same parents we all turned out differently. Just the same, a seed from a self-fertile tree will still be filled with enough variation that you would be very lucky to get a Granny Smith from the seed of a Granny Smith apple.

    When you do grafts or take cuttings of plants, the basic combination of male and female genetic material is set already (at the seed stage which may have been hundreds of years ago) so they generally grow true to type. Degradation in that genetic material, which does occur during the lifespan of each new plant, is handled by the built in mechanisms for repair. The original trees for Fuji, Honeycrisp and so on may have been chance seedlings, or the result of active breeding programs where hundreds or thousands of seeds are grown up to try and find those which possess useful qualities, and these are then propagated via cloning.

    New varieties of apples have also occurred due to genetic alterations in a single limb of an existing tree, rather than by growing seed. The genetic repair mechanisms don't always do a perfect job, so even cloned trees can stray from their type over the course of their life. Taking cuttings from that different limb will result in a new variety of apple tree.
     
  6. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    I like growing apples and citrus from seed.
    If i am still alive in 5 years i'll let you know if it was "worthwhile"
     
  7. garnede

    garnede Junior Member

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    Apple seeds are highly variable. When planting the seeds from a single apple each seed will produce a tree that is vastly different from the seed that is next to it. This helps the plant have genetic diversity and thrive in new locations. Apples grow from the arctic to the sub tropics. Most apples grown from seed are too tart to eat, but make great hard cider. Occasionally a seed will produce a sweet fruit and they become the named commercial varieties. The problem with grafted named varieties is that the trees are all genetically the same, but the pest, viruses, and funguses can all adapt to overcome them. So if a disease can kill one it can kill them all. This is why apples are one of the most sprayed crops in conventional agriculture.

    To learn more about apples and their history I recommend reading 'The Botany of Desire' by Michael Polan.
     
  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Yeah I am about to do the same, I just wonder if I should do more now. ;)
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Oh I totally came into this thread understanding the genetic variable soup that is the current apple trees. However, there is an ancient old growth apple forest in Russia where they all came from. Also considering humans have lost thousands of variations due to the ubsurd notion of modern apples, I want to see actual, real trees for the next several generations in this world. It seems important to me, as such, if it makes a cider apple, wonderful. If it makes something sweet, all the better. I reckon if I needed specific varities for my property it would have to be via grafted methods as such no one sells specific apple tree seeds.

    Even if you do find a place that sells apple seeds, they fully let you know there is no garuntee it will make a yummy apple.
     
  10. garnede

    garnede Junior Member

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