Alternative to roundup

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by pcp20us, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    Hey Chris....if you stop being passionate you may as well stop living. :)

    I know Jade Woodhouse (Baz's girlfriend? :p ) said, during her organic course ealier in the year, that they were using some poison (can't remember what) to kill off wild tobacco (sp?). They were told if they cut the plant leaving approx a foot high stump, pour the poison onto the stump then remove the stump approx 24 hrs later no poison will enter the soil.

    I couldn't get my head around how the poison wouldn't make its way into the soil if it's going to kill the plant.

    Apparently this was the only way to remove the weed (considering it covered quite a large area), as removing by hand just wasn't an option. For them anyway.

    I really think we need to use this forum to enlighten people to the dangers of such poisons. I've mentioned it to numerous people (family/friends) and 99% of the time I'm just met with blank looks :(
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Caldera, in my opinion it is pretty much madness to spray roundup in an effort to restore native ecosystems. Was there roundup in the native ecosystems before we stuffed them up?
    I think you have answered your own question. Native regen is an industry. You would save more native bush just by growing your own food, than you could be killing acres of invasive species I would guess.
     
  3. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Very sorry to hear your health is bad ATM Frosty...I hope things pick up for you - all the best from us.

    -----------------------------------

    Having been heavily involved in Landcare during my time in Tassie, I know completely where Caldera is coming from re. regen work and using glysophate.

    The Forestry, the Mines Department, the HEC, the roads department (I forget their offical acronym) and Parks & Wildlife gave some assistance, but the former three exist primarily to be profitable and the latter two are hamstrung for funds and manpower just as we were.

    We (collectively) were faced with hundreds of square kilometres of rapidly spreading gorse, very limited funding and very limited numbers on the ground - many involved being totally unpaid volunteers willing to give time to do something about it.

    Gorse flowers (and seeds) twice a year and has a dormant life cycle of about 30 years - i.e. it can reappear for the next 30 years even if you eradicate it all (a physical impossibility) immediately. In an extremely high rainfall area, the seeds are very easily washed into catchment areas and consequently dispersed over an increasingly wide area. Not to mention seed being spread far and wide by vehicles and fauna.

    The scale of the problem is monumental to even begin getting your head around, let alone beginning to constructively do something about it. At stake - eventually - is the entire W & SW Tasmanian wilderness...a major portion of the world's remaining cool temperate rainforest and most of the fauna which rely on it. Eventually gorse, broom and other European weeds will choke and outcompete many parts of it...perhaps ultimately, all.

    The best organic method of regeneration we had available (biological controls and many other things have been tried, with very limited success and each new attempt costs a lot of money) was using a specially built tractor which shredded the gorse and buried the remains in a 1.5 foot deep layer of what is essentially sawdust. To get two of the tractors there with operators costs around $20K for two full days (and they are booked solid for most of the year and for years in advance). In that time they can eliminate maybe 20 acres of gorse - and only on pretty flat land.

    The financial cost of eliminating hundreds of kilometres through the above organic means (much of the affected area on steep, mountainous land impossible for a tractor to access) every year for the next 30 years (the time length gorse seed survives to reappear again), quite literally beggars belief.

    In comparison, a group of half a dozen fit volunteers with compressed air loppers and bottles of glysophate to 'cut and paste' cut stems with, can eliminate the same 20 acre area of gorse in a month and a half of weekends for probably about $500. Even then, gorse is so indestructable that maybe 20-30% of stems which are cut and pasted spring back to life to set seed and start the whole chain all over again.

    With very limited resources and a mind boggling task to tackle, it's not hard to see why regen administrators are forced to turn to poison.

    And we're not necessarily talking about people who make the decision to use glyphosate as an easy or cheap way out...the person at the top of the decision making chain in the instance I outline was a person who was involved in the original Tagari (in Tasmania) - a person very committed to Permaculture principles, who given the resources available and the mammoth scale of the problem to be overcome, lacked any feasible option besides using glysophate - it was the only affordable option which made any sizeable impact on the task at hand.

    Unless governments at all levels start contributing serious amounts of cash, and people start donating large amounts of their spare time, this situation will remain the same. Even with widespread glysophate use, the people at the coal face are continually fighting a battle they're losing badly. Without them out there doing their best in hideous weather and terrain, the situation would be much worse.

    Glysophate use for large scale regen operations is a very tricky issue that is difficult to appeciate unless you've been faced with the alternative of using it, or throwing your hands in the air and watching hundreds of square kilometres of priceless forest and the fauna which inhabit it be decimated within a matter of decades.

    It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't choice which wreaks havoc with your ideals on all levels.

    I'm 100% against glysophate use...but having lived through the experience above, I thought I'd share what I found out firsthand about the grim realities of the situations regen people face. No doubt many of the severe limitations we were faced with don't apply to less hostile areas which are not so badly affected...but still, this is a real life, ongoing situation.
     
  4. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    If glyphosate/RoundUp cost $286,000 per litre, this argument would be moot but it doesnt, it is 'effective' and very affordable. Maybe affordability is what is so vexing in repsect to this product. That and lack of legislated transparency.

    I believe if we are to reasonably move on we need a community education program and the facts that would support this. I certainly have asked my 2 federal politicians and their resources to do just this. Have the ardent naysayers done this?

    floot
     
  5. Plumtree

    Plumtree Junior Member

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    I did ask a very simple question and by some very oblique means I developed an answer. Some of the links offered were a bit doubtful as to their partiallity but they at least added burden to the question. As a result of this 'where there is smoke, there is fire' perception I decided that there are more sanitary ways of solving my problems. After all, we are living where we are because of a desire to pursue a lifestyle more ameniable to easing our own personal share of life's 'aches & pains'!

    Perhaps a forum such as this should consider that any response may reach a contributor who is partially converted and that a less strident approach would be more beneficial.
     
  6. Plumtree

    Plumtree Junior Member

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    Just as a PS to Frosty, I am really very sorry that you are so ill and I admire your efforts to change things for the benefit of others. I have no bad feelings for you and have never, ever done anything regarding your getting banned from ALS. In fact, I should think any forum would welcome your efforts because your posts contain a substantial amount of feeling and thought! A forum would certainly fade if not for the disparity of it's participants. I personally would like to thank you for comments regarding Roundup because they carried sufficient passion to have an effect. I wish you well and sincerely hope that you never stop contributing to this forum. If there is some way for me to help have you reinstated at ALS I would be happy to help in anyway that I can. I wish you all the best!
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes plumtree,

    this and the myriod of chemicasl used in our system are a big issue made all the bigger because so very few of us have any knowledge no matter how scant about this subject. ther are many suffering in so many ways, you see lots of symptoms on the idiot box but it is reported in a flypant way because they don't want to know the real reasons behind the decline of our health's, i have members in my own family who don't believe my symptoms or how i got there, for me i just gotta live with it.

    and yes impartiality in reporting cannot be guranteed any more for the 'FOR' case than it can be for the 'AGAINST' case if doubters are going to unbalance the scales by saying scientific research in support far out weighs the lets pigeon hole it thesis of the promoters, the facts of anecdotal evidence, simply because as i have said and many others there are no 'PARAMETERS' to keep the perpetrators of bad science in check.

    and i also hope that i have not in anyway inflamed any emotions by my earlier post, i will itterate i don't ascribe to the wholesale use of these chem's, but wher i see noother answer i will use them sparingly.

    our council in their simple tiny thinking came around the streets the other day one guy hanging out of the passenger side of the truck 2 k/lt tankj of chemical on the back just with a continual jet of applicant spraying the grass that over hangs the kerb. now i don't know what they used? (can guess but). and nor was i or nayone for that matter given an option, for me with what they charge for rates i would much prefer someone gets paid to trim the edges using an attachment fitted to a tractor.

    oh when we mow i trim the kerb edge with the brushcutter as do many other folk, but undtered they sprayed on.

    my prayers go with the sufferers.

    len
     
  8. caldera

    caldera Junior Member

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    in good news

    next year they are bringing in a law (in nsw i thinK) that will require anyone spraying in a public place to erect a sign a week before notifying the people of when and what will be sprayed

    a bit like erecting a sign at the beach saying ... "today we'll be dumping waste into the ocean, thankyou have a good day"

    :oops:
     
  9. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    Seems like a small step in the right direction...unfortunately change isn't going to happen overnight with these things.

    I wonder how strict they are with spraying these days.....times to spray, weather, wind etc
     
  10. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    I have only just read this thread but had to respond. Please, please for your health's sake don't use roundup.
    12 months ago I was unfortunate enough to find myself living in the middle of a very large cane district. Cane right up to the house on all sides. The cane farmers use enormous quantities of roundup & we are all suffering physical illness as a result. The less serious effects are burning, itchy eyes & itchy skin, they more serious are chronic fatigue & depression. If you think it's my imagination do your own research on the net. It will only take you a few minutes, & could save your health & sanity.
    Best of luck with the mulches & the avo's.
    Helen
     
  11. fiona

    fiona Junior Member

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    Well, after planning on an early night, I've just spent about an hour reading through old posts and links on this topic, and I don't think I'm half way through it yet. I have a couple of specific questions that I'm hoping someone knowledgable can answer.

    Firstly, let me say, I don't use any chemicals on my own block of land, and I buy almost only organic food, etc. So I do what I can to avoid chemicals. And for a bit of background - I'm only on a quarter acre block, so I do have neighbours quite close, and I have two young kids and am pregnant.

    So here are my concerns. We've only been in this house about 6 months. I would imagine it is possible that the people living here before used Roundup. My neighbour at my back fence has asked me if he can spray my land with round up as he's apparently been doing it for years - just the area that is bush that leads into his bush area - as he says he doesn't want grass seeds to go onto his land. I've told him he isn't allowed to, and that we'll gradually do it all by hand. So I've started doing one patch by hand - the most urgent re seeds getting onto his land.

    Now for my first question - I'm kneeling in amongst this grass and pulling it out and piling it up. I do have gloves on. Should I be worrying about residual chemicals causing problems, particularly considering I'm pregnant? We've been in the house about 6 months so it couldn't have been sprayed in that time.

    Second concern - my neighbours on one side of my house have bamboo and they regularly chop some down and apply round up to the actual stump. They don't just spray. This is along the border of my our properties - on their side but very close to the side of my house. I don't go around that side of the house much, but do walk past sometimes (a couple of times a week?). My veggie garden starts only a few metres away from this though. How much should I be worried about this? Considering he applies it direct to the plant and not to the soil, could it travel in the soil and somehow make its way into our veggies?

    These neighbours have a 1 yr old, so I will be showing them a couple of articles from here and hoping they'll give up the practice, but I don't know them that well yet.

    I know from reading other threads that people may have contrasting answers to some of these issues, and I'm happy to hear different opinions.

    And Frosty, I'm so sorry to hear of what you're going through. I hope that I can influence at least a few people to consider the impact of their spraying/chemical use. Almost everyone around here seems to do it.

    Fiona
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day fiona,

    that's a bit of a tricky one that hey, for starters the neighbour over the back as far as i am concerned can't briong pressure to bare over grass seed that may or may not get onto his property that is his risk i reckon, as that is life, he can deal with it when it shows on his plot as i see it, but it may pay for you to get a qualified answer on that one?

    as for the other or any otehr neighbours there isn't a lot you can do unfortunately so long as they don't actually spray onto your land but any spraying can have spray drift so depending on the day ie.,. wind, sun etc.,. and their experience you are going to end up with some residual drift onto you place. best advice i can give is to try and plant a break of trees or of native bamboos to help trap any drift that may occur.

    and the bloke over the back could do likewise using a growing cane the common one is what i know as cow cane barrier.

    len
     
  13. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    I read this thread late last night & somehow only saw the first page. If I had read the next couple of pages I wouldn't have responded as the topic had been well & truly chewed over. However, after reading the rest of the posts I am surprised that no one mentioned that roundup is banned in several European countries. I thought I read that only a few months ago when I did some research during a p.c course, but I may be mistaken.
    Fiona, I'll let others with more experience answer your specific questions about your situation, but I would sincerely encourage you to GO OUT each & every time any questionable chemical is used that may make contact with you. A fetus has extremely rapidly multiplying cells & they need to be allowed to multiply exactly as nature has evolved them to. However, having said that I'd also add that unless your independently wealthy, you can only do what you can do. Be as informed as you can be, take the best care of yourself & your children that you can & then relax. Stress is a destroyer of health & happiness also. Millions of perfect little babies are born every year to mums who deliberatley expose them to poison (think tabacco), or who can't can't avoid it (think just about everyone else, because were all living in a toxic soup to a greater or lesser degree).
    Helen
     
  14. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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  15. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

    Sorry for the emotions it was easier then the words and thoughts that were racing each other to come outa my head and into my typing fingers..

    Hey frosty,,you musta really pissed ALS of to be banned lololol well done..

    their all a bunch of goody goody two shoes/without any experts,Some people just dont live in the real world do they? So sad to hear your helths deteriating so rapidly..maybe i should visit you in the new year sometime,sounds like roundup would be preferential to 500lb bombs..
    or as freindly general would say(ordinance" afftecting minor collaterall damage.. Maybe a handgrenade is better or gorse removal then roundup..

    at least a person wouldnt have to worry bout "long term effects"... :lol: :.

    Halfway thru this post I was thinking that this was "some wankers idea of a joke" posting a sort of lets stir up these dumb ass permies and divide them all....get em arguing amongst them selves...some very clever people can be shit stirers.....NOW im not saying plum tree is a shit stirer,as ive now read her very nicely worded kind thoughts towards frosty.........As an Example if i decided to visit a religious bulliten board and asked Questions regarding as to wether the devil had any good ideas to get a party going,i would probly get a worse responce to asking r/u questions........


    In my Humble opinion Permaculture is about Self Sufficeincy,Self Sustainability,Caring for the envioroment,Caring for each other,Caring for our fellow creatures from insects, to elephants ,Yabbies to Whales,
    Why would any sane Creature and i include the species "Humans" want to use anything that is even remotly dangerous to their own health and saftey.

    A question for the "We need To Spray" brigade answer me this....

    If something happened tommorow that causes the end or near end of Human life as we know it..eg Asteroid=end of dinasours,

    Would the supposed weeds purpotedly smothering our forsets,eg gorse,blackberry,pampass etc etc. Would they infact smother and kill all of everthing in its path, if left uncontrolled.I dont see the scene of rampant gorse growing over ayers rock,or duck weed causing stife in sydney harbour,do you.....

    Funny how a chemical manufactuer,can sue more people then have sued them,

    As we sit here fighting and arguing, and getting nowhere but slowly dying thru ignorence, Someones getting very rich at our expence and "laughing all the way to the bank"

    Were dying in agony.Their dying laughing!!!!!!!!!!

    Tezza
     
  16. Forest Fairy

    Forest Fairy Junior Member

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    Sorry to drag this one up again, but I am loosing sleep thinking about what I can do about "getaway Bamboo".
    I noted that Fiona had said that her neighbour had a problem with bamboo and was cutting it and painting the tops with roundup and not spraying it. That is exactly what my "him indoors" wants to do and I am really against it. I have been digging the bloody stuff up for months now (have a 30 acre property and have enormous amounts of it. It is growing faster than I can keep up with it and is now going towards the new shed which is why he is threatening with such drastic measures.
    I have to, have to, have to find an alternative to the dreaded roundup as soon as I can.
    The Bamboo nurseries all say that dropping trenches really won't work as the bamboo just breaks through it. Digging a moat surrounding it isn't an alternative either as it is growing in all different places.
    I am seriously spending about 3-4 hours a day digging the goddamn stuff up which is sending me crazy.
    What to do?????
     
  17. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Plastic barriers in trenches deep enough are purported to be effective. I can't remember how deep, but its like 2 feet or so. Then you need to watch that buildup of organic matter doesn't allow them to get over the top of the barrier, which needs to come out of the ground 5 inches or so...
    Running bamboo shouldn't be planted in the suburbs... Its beautiful stuff in the right place though!
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day jules,

    only one way realy, bit the bullet time get in a digger machine and dig it out you need to possibly go down app 1 meter and around the parameter you need to chase down every rhizome, now they can go for a long way before surfacing.

    painting with neat commercial strength roundup will work and you may have to go that way as well as dig up, but buy the glypho' from the produce agency you need commercial strength and use according to instruction. whilst ever it is there and growing it is going to be potentialy problamatic.
    len
     
  19. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Jules,

    Cut off all above ground stems and THEN FERTILISE the area. Wait for new growth and cut that off. The fertiliser will force new growth [use urea] which you will remove. This way you will deplete the rhizomes, remember the rhizomes need green leaves to photosynthesize, remove this and kill the rhizome. The rhizomes have finite stored energy.

    You have to remove the bamboo anyway and the clumping bamboos are such tough customers anyway I am not sure glyphosate will be successful.

    Do one or two clumps at a time. I would be tempted to heavily mulch a cut & fertilised area to further stress the rhizomes into pushing shoots further out of the soil and it will make the shoots easy to cut off with a shovel blade etc.

    I dont think there is an easy solution to clumping bamboo but determination and persistence win out every time. I have [with a farmer] pulled out 2 big clumps of this stuff with a wire noose and a tractor. We pulled a bit at a time and sorta rolled a big mat of it out of the ground. This was dragged into a free range pig pen to keep them occupied.

    We had to move 2 fences to do this as part of a re-design and let the farmer get at the bamboo. After this was done the area was ploughed. There was a bit of regrowth but this was killed with a disc plow when the paddock was seeded for lucerne.

    floot
     
  20. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    PS. The farmer owned a bulldozer and didnt use it and the tractor was a 100hp Chamberlain. I dont know if you would do it with a lil kubota or similar. We [meaning I crawled in there] started in the middle and worked in 4 directions.

    floot
     

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