Advice with gum trees

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Sherrie, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. Sherrie

    Sherrie New Member

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    Im looking at purchasing a property that is a bush block with some type of gum tree forrest, they are not the huge gumtrees but i would say medium tree not sure if its because they are young or that it the type of tree. I know i will need to identify the trees for more specific information, but after some general advice experience of others. The block has clay and rocky soil, there is a lot of litter under the tree area and there is no current growth of other plant types on the ground underneath. Is there hope for this soil and situation to be turned into a food forrest and fodder for my goats, rabbits, ducks and chooks. I dont want to go and make a big investment only to find that there is not much that can be done to turn it into productive land. Clearing of the gum trees will not be an option due to restrictions.
    Thanks for any advice or your own experience.
     
  2. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    What about other properties nearby to the intended one? Are they growing something other than Eucalypts?

    Also depends on your area, climate, geology etc. Driving around our area, certain places with poor soil will have unique Eucalypt groupings with scattered understory. That's not to say that all areas with Eucalypts will have poor soil, they can dominate other areas too.

    Shade, allelopathy, water usage from the Eucs can prevent other species from growing. If you can't cut the trees down and they dominate the area, then yes...probably your food forest will not be as productive as it could be.
     
  3. JoeMerc

    JoeMerc Junior Member

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    Excessive shade alone, can make a big impact on the growth of food crops, particularly in non summer months.

    Most food crops need a certain number of hours each day of sunlight.

    Generally speaking, food crops grow best in full sun, however in summer on extremely hot days, shade can be of benefit because it can stop some plants from burning eg tomatoes and comfrey.

    It also depends on what sort of food crops you wish to grow. I have grown parsley in a position of full sun and it grew to be a huge plant. Eventually it got old and went to seed, so I ripped it out and replaced it with chard.

    I broadcast some of the parsley seeds to the side of the house, where there is a concrete driveway which has gaps in it where plants can still grow.

    The driveway is fully shaded in winter with a lot of shade in summer. The resulting plants are almost the same size and I dont even need to water them.

    I have chard in a shaded position and in summer it was growing beautifully, but now that it is winter its growth has been stunted, especially noticeable because I can compare it to the chard 8 feet away bathing in full sun, which is doing extremely well.

    Of course there are a lot of other variables which makes your question difficult to answer.

    It is a good idea to look around the area at neighbours who have a similar environment to see what they are growing.

    A chat to them if possible would be best, to see what can be grown.

    The proof, as always, is in the pudding.
     
  4. dreuky

    dreuky Junior Member

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    If it is gum forest ie total or near total canopy, which it sounds like because you say there is nothing growing under the trees, I would think you would have a very hard time growing anything. We had part of or last property as gum tree forest and apart fro a few very hardy woody weeds nothing grew under the trees. The soil sounds like yours which is pretty impossible to use for anything. If you are not allowed to clear then my thoughts would be pass it by.
     
  5. Sherrie

    Sherrie New Member

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    This is a pic. I looked at it again today and there is grass growing around here and there, and the soil looks good on top where all the decomposing matter is lying. Would fruit and nut tress grow in this environment...its central vic, aus. There is area around the house that i think would be ok for vegies its just very dry and hard ground at the moment. The block surrounding it are also bush blocks as well as large farming/cropping paddocks. I want to run some goats for milk and sheep for meat, chooks and ducks. What types of shrubs or small trees could i plant as food for the animals.
    I can not attach a pic to show what it looks like.
    Thanks for your thoughts and input.
     
  6. dreuky

    dreuky Junior Member

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    You might be able to grow Tasagte (probably spelt that wrong, false Lucerne tree) It grew well in our dry rocky area and didn't mind the shade. But I would still think you would be better off looking for something with a bit more possibilities but it depends on how much you like this block
     
  7. Gordon Rouse

    Gordon Rouse New Member

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    I have some considerable experience with growing under gums, and while it has been very problematic, I would encourage you to consider it a noble challenge worth pursuing even if un-profitable.

    There are many unproven myths about gums, that they use heaps of water and that they are allelopathic. Up until 6 months ago I was absolutely certain the chemicals from the gum leaves were inhibiting growth in my property. Now I am not so sure. It is indeed true that Eucalyptus oil and Eucalyptus sap have growth inhibitory properties on seedlings, however my experimentation's showed that these effects were very short-lived with the chemicals being greedily consumed by molds.

    It is possible that the "Wood Wide Web" (fungi network) distributes these as toxins to other susceptible plants, however, their low toxicity on seedlings that I observed makes me think even this is unlikely (this distribution method has been proven with Juglone from walnuts). I am inclined to believe instead that the chemicals that gums produce are more likely a treat for fungi, possibly antibiotic in behaviour, these chemicals encourage and fortify the fungi that Eucalyptus trees are reliant on.

    I have certainly found that when water runs down the side of a messmate, it collects acids from the bark. The PH of this water is about 3.1 (ie acidic). The acids that gum trees produce could be considered allelopathic, and contribute to the 'dead-zone' you often see encircling the trunks of gum trees in hard depleted soils.

    However, this acid effect is usually limited to a few metres even in the worst leached clays. In good soils it is common to see rich healthy grasses growing right up to the trunk of gums.

    The shading effect is in my opinion an advantage. Gums are partial shaders, ie they do not try to collect every photon they can. This makes sense for a tree adapted to dry climates, as producing leaves that are shaded by other leaves is wasteful. This means there is light available for shrubs and other trees to grow beneath them. Given Eucalyptuss dominate the upper canopy, they must maintain their dominance through other means than shading, and this is probably by training the soil fungi to deal almost exclusively to them.
    On my property, the dominant Eucalyptus are Messmate and Mountain Grey gum. The former in particular can grow at a most remarkable rate from seedling even though the soil is significantly depleted in every essential nutrient bar iron. This rate of growth only be explained by a very strong relationship with the fungi network, that sees the Eucalyptus having the first takings of every recycled nutrient. Probably the hardest aspect of our property is a troublesome aggressive fungi called 'Scleratinia'. It produces little brown rubbery cups, and produces a condition I call 'Summer Wilt'. Although in agricultural circles it is known for producing 'white mould', I find it more of an issue in the drier months as it causes premature leaf yellowing in raspberry plants. Avocados and macadamia plants will sit in the the ground with yellow leaves all year round, and never grow. In the hardest areas raspberries struggle to grow past November. In the wetter times, snow peas and climbing beans will just rot at the stem. It will also get into vegetable pots. Fresh potting mix is infected in no time. However, after a year or two, the soil in the pots matures, and some semblance of vegetables can be grown in them - however you will never have prize winning vegetables!

    It might sound like that there is nothing that grows spectacularly well under gums, however Eucalyptus also need nitrogen, which is in very low supply in my soil. This is the Eucalyptus's weakness that you can take advantage of!

    Certain woody legumes will grow with similar vigour in the Eucalyptus forest on depleted soils - these being mainly acacias. While many acacias offer value as fodder (ie blackwoods, hop-wattle) it is Tagasaste that is the one true hope for abundance under gums! One should not consider shade a problem, as the Eucalyptus's need for nitrogen I suspect means tree lucerns will be selling nitrogen for sugar on the "Wood Wide Web". Certainly I have seen incredible healthy growth in tree - lucernes, which is remarkable for a plant that is said to require P-fertlizers in open paddocks! (and don't even think that my soil has a trace of phosphorous!).

    Tagasaste may struggle for a while after planting, but can suddenly take off with vigour (perhaps when it has tapped into the fungi network?) Too close to the Eucalyptus acid circle and it may struggle. Also, in the hardest Scleratinia dominated areas it is slower.

    Tree lucernes will not become weeds because they are just way too palatable for wallabies! You will need to start them in wire protectors. Tagasaste only becomes a weed along road-sides for reasons that might be now clear! Where the tree-lucern has grown into small trees I have successfully established some blueberries under their summer shade - which I cut back in Autumn and feed to my goat and soil. (by next summer, the blueberries have their shade again!)

    Now that I know many of the problems I had associated with Eucalyptus on my property were actually caused by 'Scleratinia', I am now keeping an eye out for little rubbery brown fungi cups, to see if there is some sort of relationship between them and Eucalyptus. I wonder if Scleratinia helps keep Eucalyptus dominant on depleted soils.

    For now, I need to learn more about taming Scleratinia, and will be putting more effort into establishing tagasaste feed fodder/soil improver/berry companion as a means of making my Eucalyptus/Scleratinia dominated property more productive.
     

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