2006YEAR OF THE RED DOG. How do dogs help with Permaculture?

As last year was the Chinese Zodiac year of the Green Chicken, and there was so many chook related things that were so prominant from my perception (eg. ATA's contented chook award, lots & lots of local permaculture groups doing chook projects, the mass media hype on bird flu...etc.)

It brought me to start thinking about this year, and how we are readily approaching the Chinese new year (I think it's January 28th this year). And this new year is the year of the red ("fire") dog.

The immediate imagery that a red "fire" dog conjures up for me is a loyal & faithful red heeler, that has spark in its eyes and a spring in its step.

But, how do dogs fit into the permaculture picture?

Seeing that I never have had or looked after a dog nor have ever had to work with dogs or incorporate them into a design... I have never looked into this area... or thought about it... So I asked a member of my local permaculture group who is a farmer & owns dogs, how he thinks they help with permaculture.

This is what he told me:
- Dogs can be trained to scare away unwanted birds (such as blackbirds) that eat fruit, grains, worms in the garden. They can also protect the lambs & kids from predator birds that swoop & prey on them. .
- Dogs can save on use of muskets, noise making machines, poisons & sometimes even netting.
- He also told me about "Marema dogs", that will live with the herbavors in the paddocks and protect them from wild dogs, foxes and people not known to them.

Please tell me how you think dogs fit into the permaculture picture? Do you use dogs on your permaculture property? Do dogs help or hinder with the creation of a sustainable culture society?

Responses may be collated into an article for "PIE" (Permaculture Information Exchange) or "Sustainable Culture News" . Please state in your response if you give permission for your contribution to be used in an article.

Looking forward to seeing how relevant the year of the red dog is to our permaculture practises.

Cheers!
from
Fern O.

 

Oh my god, the synchronicity! I just got my first ever dog of my own, having wanted one for most of my life. She is a red heeler called Ruby. She is beautiful and loyal and I love her, even though she attacks my chickens and barks at my goats and jumps on and over and through my nursery pots, and rolls around on my new plantings...
I am really hoping that I can train Ruby to be better behaved around the above mentioned Permaculture things on our place. So far, she is a great friend, and might be good and deterring thieves, but beyond that I am actually having doubts about how good of a Permie she is going to be!

 

I have a Belgian Tervuren. Shilo, who has been trained to stop trying to herd the chickens (her method was to try to run them to exhaustion, then she would probably eat them). She is very good now, and mostly ignores them.

I have a raccoon and at least one opossum under my house. They come and go from under the front of the house, and don't seem to go into the immediate back yard at all, which I can only think is because of the dog. Shilo has a rather aggressively predatory nature, and given the opportunity, she would kill an opossum and probably get ripped up by the raccoon, although it seems to be a young one.

I get absolutely NO stray cats going after the chickens. Shilo is perfectly good with my cats, but any cat that runs will get chased. She's never actually gotten within 10 m of catching one, so I don't really know what she would do if she accidentally trapped one.

And, since Shilo has a black face, and EVERYONE knows that black-faced dogs are mean, no one ever tries to come into my yard.

Sue

 

year of the dog

Good on you R-o-M. To own a healer is to love a healer.
What a fantastic poll.
My darling canine companion is a blue healer-kelpie cross, all energy, and the complete love of my life.
The healer -kelpie “pedigree” gives her real intelligence.
She has about 20 rabbit kills under her belt and one young fox and a couple of rats. So that's about her permie contribution. - to the compost bin.
But she LOVES spending time outdoors and is a real “conscience”. I will be lying on the lounge, reading the paper and thinking I "should" be outside doing something, and she will come an give me a real hard, sharp poke in the ribs with her nose, and growl/whine like “get going you lazy barstard” and how can I argue with that! So I find myself off the lounge and then the outdoors monster grabs me and I am doing productive things.
On a stinking hot day she will head for the air-con, and when I go to go outside she looks up with an expression like “are U mad?”. So using good animal logic she knows when I should be working and when I should be snoozing! Very, very smart dog.

 

I have two wonderful whippets, apart from the company they give to me while I work from home, they protect the house barking at all strangers, they share the same area as the chooks which is around the house, so they keep the chooks safe, they chase and kill rabbits, rats and mice. They also chase crows out of the orchard.

God help any cat that strays into the yard to kill any of our wonderful bird life, we have never lost any native wildlife to the dogs which is a real benefit.

 

Hey Fern, Richard and heuristics

'Tis true...heelers rock. Our red heeler, Allie, is a great companion ~85% of the time. Her minuses include a skittish viciousness with new people (esp. when I'm not around...), but that plays a pretty good role in farm protection, and a tendency to chase the mouse hunting cat that hangs out about the place. She's good with the animals (didn't used to be...be FIRM when they're bad) and eats lots of meadow voles, of which we are overly blessed in abundance this year.

Ally in action...


from https://www.mossbackfarm.com/archive/000100.html

Cheers. Ruff ruff.

Rich

 

i voted yes but with the reservation if it involves rural acreage, don't think they are needed at all in suburbia. and in rural so long as they are trained not to go after native fauna, our dog(s)(we did have 3 at one stage) are good for early warning for snake sightings when walking around the property, also for keeping the neighbours goats away from our boundry so they don't raid our tree, good for catching & killing rats n mice, and an early warning system for unwanted night visitors.

len won't mention what i think of cats :lol:

 

"...don't think they are needed at all in suburbia"

I've had a dog most of my life, except for a year and a half when I lived in Las Vegas. Some kids broke into the house then, and stole all my Mom's jewelry (most of it given to her by her father, precious little monetary value) and all the Christmas gift certificates I had just bought.

YES, you DO need them in suburbia, if your crime is anything like ours.

Sue

 

Okay, so when you say "firm", what exactly do you mean? I tried to peform the alpha dog rollover, knee on chest thing after some of Ruby's worst infractions with the poultry, and I probably overdid it because she won't "come" to me now, if she has the slightest inkling that I might be upset with her. This could be a big problem, for instance today I tried to call her back off the neighbours driveway and she was nearly run over by a car...
I have sort of settled for tying her up for ten minutes each time she chases the chooks, and the message seems to get through, for the next two or three times she sees them. The fourth or fifth time she just can't help herself anymore, and starts stalking them like prey...
Any ideas for Permaculture dog obedience very gratefully accepted.

 

yeh richard,

the dogs we bought are all rural borne and bred they just seem to have more sense in them very easy to train or condition, our dogs where very easy to train they came on cammnad and learn to only chase hairs too easy those city bred dogs pretty hopeless. our fogs won't go outside out barbed wire fence they know the rules.

like this one here when i hunt her after next doors goats she goes through the boundry fence and as soon as i call her back and she may be 80 or so meters away she turns and comes back. same as if she gets carried away and chases a roo or wobbly she comes off the chase as soon as we yell.

if you have high crime then maybe a dog for watch dog reasons but most city dogs serve no real purpose for their owners.

len

 

Richard,

First off, if you call your dog to reprimand her, what do you think she's going to do the NEXT time you call her? Yes, exactly what she's doing now. Violence really doesn't work well for training --- it just makes them afraid of you.

My dog was three years old when I got my chickens. I put them in a temporary wire pen (circular) until I got their tractor finished. Shilo thought they were the most wonderful-looking live-action toys she had ever seen! She would race round and round the pen, using her natural instincts to "herd" them. Then she would look at me as if to say, "They're looking pretty meaty now, aren't they? You don't have to bother cooking them for me."

The cure was more simple than I thought it would be. I put her on a leash. We walked up to the wire pen. I put her on a down-stay and stood right there with her. She looked up at me, then at the chickens, up at me, then at the chickens.

Then we got up and walked about a quarter of the way around the pen, and I put her on another down-stay for a few minutes. We did this two or three times around the pen, with me insisting that she stay down quietly. I told her quietly that these were OUR chickens, and she wasn't supposed to chase them.

Later that day, I saw her just walking quietly around the pen, then standing and just watching them. After a few more days, she just ignored them.

After a couple of weeks I let them out in the back field (fenced) and walked out there with Shilo on her long leash, just in case. She did her usual things in the field, but ignored the chickens. So I turned her loose, and she acted like there were no chickens in sight.

And she's been fine ever since. The chickens will sometimes scare themselves and all squawk and semi-fly across the yard, but she still ignores them. I've even (accidentally) left her outside with them loose, with no problems.

Granted, this isn't going to work with all dogs. But you have a smart breed -- the usual problem is communication. She's doing what dogs do naturally. You just have to get her to understand that the birds are hands-off (okay, teeth off).

Could you get some mesh wire fencing and set it up temporarily? Mine was just wire, uncoiled to form a circle. Keep the other chickens locked up away from her, if you can. Let her work with the enclosed chickens. Put her on a leash and talk gently to her. Praise her when she stays quiet.

Personally, I would forget the alpha-dog crap. It's more for people who are major control-freaks. Dogs are instinctive think/do creatures. They don't analyze ideas, like who goes out the door first. They're like kids: they want to go out the door first because there is likely to be something interesting out there, and they want to get there ASAP.

On coming to you: call her to you and give her a treat. Do this every time until she's consistent. NEVER, EVER CALL HER TO REPRIMAND HER! Then call her to you and only give her a treat occasionally, praise her the rest of the time. If you use a treat every time, she will get in the habit of only coming to you when she knows you have a treat. Occasional treats are like slot machines: people keep playing them because they figure they will get something occasionally, but they will continue to play even when they don't. Now, THAT'S training!

Tip: Get a small book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. You can usually find it at pet shops & book stores in the dog-training section. It's great! Easy to read, easy to understand. It makes so much sense!

Good luck!

Sue

 

Yeah, what Sue said. She knows dogs for sure.

With the caveat regarding alpha-dog control freaks....ok yes, I do have a control freak streak, but it's very mild :twisted: . Our heeler is not an issue in this regard...she only wants to please.

Our husky-shepherd rescue is another story. He's very willful, bolts at the first opportunity, and only listens when it suits him. Years of training, treats, and some reminding him of who is alpha has turned him into a great dog. We got him at 2 1/2 years old, and he was barely civilized at the time, so I think it's all worked out. He's pretty happy, and 'only' bit one pig.

Another book I found helpful is 'The other end of the leash'. Can't remember the author.


Rich

 

Hi All

Not all dogs are equal, like people. Next door has a red cattle dog and it is well how should I say it, stupid. Some dogs train well and become real friends and a benefit around the property, I have been around dog shows, dog racing and have many friends who have dogs and some have had lots of money spent on training which was wasted money in the end as the dog just didn't get it, my brother has two border collies, one is super smart and follows hand commands and was even in a movie and other is well not so smart (understatement) and just wants to play stick 24/7

It's the luck of the draw when you get a puppy if it is going to be a smart dog or not.

 

Our RSPCA rescue (That we often wondered why we got him) has ended up actually saving our chooks recently from a feral cat, has chased down the rabbits, and gave the resident brushtail a scare so he has stopped coming into the roof and moved into one of the gum trees in the bush behind (yes I saw him last night so he hasn't just "disappeared")

Toby The Wonder Dog (named so caos you were always wondering what he has chewed now) has finally earned his place at Honeydale Farm (other than the love and kisses that my daughter lavishes on the scamp)

A

 

dogs

Bazman – my Dad taught me a trick for picking a pup from a litter when I was a wee bittie thing.

We were offered first pick. I wanted the “cute” one.... but Dad made us stand there, quiet and let the puppies settle.. Once they were quiet and drowsy he clapped his hands. The one with its ears up first, up and looking around – that's the one we got. And what a super dog. A real, real ,real smart Blue. For instance, Dad had a guy that used to come and drive for him. He'd leave his private car at our house and take the work vehicle. Did this for 8 years. Dog never so much as raised an eyebrow at him.... Then one time we made an arrangement that the driver would pick up our private car and meet us at point B where we'd do a change over. We drove to rendezvous, waited, waited, waited (my Dad was never a patient man), waited. Drove towards home, drove, drove, drove in the drive, there's our driver.... Dad's out of the car, red in face, gives the driver a blast “CANT YOU BLOODY READ!!!!!!)
Yes, says poor ole Seumus, I can read, but your bloody dog can't!! Dog Would NOT let him near our PRIVATE car. Driver could do what the hell he like round the work vehicle – had done for 8 years with the dog never interested. The minute he went near our private vehicle while we weren't home, the dog was on duty – and by accounts had him bailed up in his car for over an hour!!

Sue- you sure know dogs! Richard -take Sue's advice!.

The way I trained my dog was similar to Sue, but without any theory. This dog was pre-loved, meaning she was a Christmas gift pup dumped around the end of Feb, (typical of our disposable society). I got her aged about 4-6 months. Dumped dogs know they are lucky to have a second chance. They KNOW they were on death row at the dog pound. They KNOW you save their life. Dogs are loyal, but saved dogs doubly so. This dog (like so many) only has one desire in life – to please me/their owner. I give her heaps and heaps of praise and affection and tell her she is the best dog in the world – all the time. Then if she does do something I don't like I onlyhave to rouse on her a bit and she is just DEVASTATED. So she stops, IMMEDIATELY. (I wish some people's kids were as well-behaved).
I know my dog was badly beaten before I got her. She was terrified of garden hoses. I imagine because she had chewed one as a pup and been beaten savagely with it. Because I figured she had already had enough brutality in her life, I really didn't want to hit her. So I used positive rewards and praise for what she did right.. I know this technique won't work for all dogs. You do need a smart one.... all (most) dogs are wonderful, but a really intelligent dog is sensational.

 

Most working breeds are smart. Many of them are smarter than their owners. If YOU get your own way all the time and have a good time, are you showing that you are smart or dumb? You'd probably say smart. But if the dog does it, you call it dumb. Why are there different rules? Why would a quality be a virtue in Man, but vice in a dog?

Cattle dog breeds can be very stubborn. They always think they are right. They think they are human and have the right to decide what they should do. When their humans don't agree, they tend to butt heads.

Sue

 

dogs

Smart dogs can think their owners are dumb!. (and in some cases they are right!)
My dog quickly learnt that killing rabbits made me enormously pleased, proud and effusive. So here was something she wanted to do almost more than breathe – and it was a “good dog” thing! Excellent!. So she wanted to do it all the time. One time Jester (cause she keeps me amused) had a rabbit bailed up under a dead wattle. I poked one end and the rabbit ran out the other, straight into Jester's mouth. A while later we did the “trick” again The third time she barked for me to come and do my “thing”. I remember her looking up at me, with the dying rabbit in her mouth, and an expression something like “you know, you're only about half as stupid as I thought!” The night she killed the young fox. It was one kind of bark for the fox – “Hey, you – freeze!, Don't even think of moving, you're mine!” And another bark for my benefit: “Will you hurry up and get your arse down here and do your thing!”.

 

Thanks for the advice, Sue and everyone.

 

We have a poodle... Yep, that's right a poncy white poodle. As a farm dog she was the best ratter I have ever seen and she would not give up until she had murdered the revolting things. Once when she started digging one out, it bit her on the face - three times! - but she wouldn't quit and eventually, all bloody on the pointy end, she pulled the rat from the hole, gave it a mighty death shake and trotted off happy as larry. She killed a black snake that was in the garage, and she dispatched mice with great efficiency. She never showed one bit of interest in chasing the chooks or ducks and was obdient, very smart and totally loyal. She is 16 years old now, nearly blind and almost deaf, so she needs a bit of attention, but she has been easy to look after and deserves a rest in her old age.

 

2006 dog

Oh, that's sweet. What's her name? Yours must be the very next best dog in the world after mine!