Perennial systems in an oceanic climate with cool, wet summers- Experiences?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by chook-in-eire, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    Prompted by discussions relating to issues specific to oceanic climates with cool, wet summers and relatively mild winters in the threads Ask Geoff a question - Round 3
    and
    Mark Shepherd's 106 acre permaculture farm in Viola, Wisconsin I am starting this thread with a view to exchanging experiences with folks living in regions such as coastal British Columbia, SE Alaska, Aleutian Islands, southern Iceland, Faroes, coastal Norway, Ireland and UK (W and NW in particular), or southwesternmost South America.

    I've described some of our challenges with regard to perennial systems in the West of Ireland here and others have chimed in.

    Specifically, the question is: Which perennials can best meet our needs for carbohydrates (starchy foods, sugars incl. honey), proteins and fats, be it directly or channeled through livestock.

    Top-fruit and nut production can be difficult in these regions due to limited growing degree days and excess rainfall but there may be species and cultivars out there that have been useful and successful for some.

    Let's hear it. :handshake:
     
  2. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    Great thread CIE.

    We use Burnt Ridge Nursery and Raintree Nursery in Washington State. There will be a lot of trial and error to see what grows well and what doesn't. So far we can grow pretty much what we want in the greenhouse we use during our summer stays. The small orchard has apples and cherries and some huge rhubarb. We have established horseradish, some docks, a few varieties of mint beyond the mint that is growing all over. The plan is to create a terrace and swale system to maximise edge and microclimates. Some of the terraces will have open sided "greenhouses" with clear poly-carbonate roof panels. The drip edge will put the water from the roof either into the swale or into a gravity fed drip system for the occassional dry spell. We have access to two small creeks that supply water to the house and gardens and for the micro-hydro system. The Tlingit and Huna tribes had fascinating methods of managing their salmon stocks. A good report is here:
    https://alaska.fws.gov/asm/pdf/fisheries/reports/02-104final.pdf
    When time allows I hope to put some of the practices to use in a small creek up the beach that has had slope failure due to poor logging practices back in the
    1960's. They also increased the productivity of their shellfish flats by creating low terraces on them. The system of clans and families and how they interacted and understood their place in the big and small scheme of things is fascinating.
     
  3. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    We are getting better results starting from seed in pots and then transplanting. It takes to long to get bare-root plants through the mail for that to work. Failures there have been mulberry and pawpaw. Two years ago we planted potatoes in a grass-choked shady area. They had sprouted before we left for the year. Last year they had all sprouted again. We left them to see what they do this coming summer. Also we are experimenting with wild rice. The results of that will become evident this summer.
     
  4. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Taters, Oca, Mashua, Cat tail, sunchokes.. just off the top of my head, all grown here in South Central Coastal Oregon.

    You may want to ask the Haida, Tlignit and other local tribes what they used to eat. I left many off my little list up there because for example, while some eat Camas, some Camas can kill you.

    I know people love to come to PRI and ask for a ready list of what plants work where, but very often, half the fun in discovering indigenous plants for your area. Tastes & discoveries are awaiting you around the corner.
     
  5. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    I'll kick off with some apple varieties.
    But first some data on growing conditions here to allow for comparisons:

    Our 1 ha holding:
    Ireland (mid-West), 53N
    Annual mean temp. 9.8C
    Cool summers - July mean temp. 15.3C, AHS Heat Zone 1
    Mild winters - Jan. mean temp. 5.2C, US Hardiness Zone 9
    Rainfall c. 1200-1400 mm (47-55") fairly evenly dispersed throughout the year
    Sunshine hours: 1275 on average
    19 days of air frost, 72 days of ground frost.
    Frost-free period generally June-September inclusive.
    Growing Degree Days: c.850-1000 (Base 10C) / c.1550-1800 (Base 50F)
    Soils are part clay-loam, more or less gently sloping towards SE/E/NE, part fen peat on flat ground with high groundwater level.

    Our experience with apple varieties on clay-loam (the fen peat would not be considered suitable for apples, though I am trialling some crabapples and Malus sieversii seedlings there).

    Annie Elizabeth [M25], planted 2002, good, unfortunately suffered some serious goat damage
    Ard Cairn Russet [M25?], (Irish cultivar) planted 2012, don't know yet but should be good
    Ballyvaughan Seedling [M106], (Irish cultivar) planted 2000, very good
    Cavan Sugarcane [M25?], (Irish cultivar), planted 2000, promising
    Charles Ross, planted 2006, promising
    Dabinett [M25], cider apple, planted 2002, very good
    Early Victoria=Emneth Early [MM106] planted 2002, excellent
    Egremont Russet [M111], planted 2002, ok
    Franks Seedling [M106], (Irish cultivar), planted 2000, good, only coming into its own now
    Gladstone [M106], planted 2001, killed by goats but did not look too promising
    Grenadier (MM106), planted 1997, very good
    Irish Peach (MM106), (Irish cultivar) planted 1998, very good
    James Grieve (M26), planted 1997, very good initially but very scabby in recent years, possibly due to shelter plantings reducing ventilation and the wet summers have not helped...
    Jonagold [M26], planted 2002, good
    Jupiter [MM106], planted 2002, poor, susceptible to canker
    Kaiser Wilhelm [MM106], planted 2002, some canker but a very large tree and reasonable crop
    Katy=Katja (M26), planted 1997, excellent, seems to be able to cope with anything thrown at it; it does hail from Sweden after all!
    Lord Lambourne (MM106), planted 2011, don't know yet
    Mrs. Perry, Irish cultivar, chance seedling from up North, planted 2006, very good
    Red Boskoop (MM106), planted 1997, very large tree but seems to struggle with the climate despite coming from the Netherlands. Friends had the same experience.
    Red Devil [MM106] - planted 2002, succumbed to canker
    Red Gravensteiner - planted 2006, don't know yet, but healthy and vigorous so far
    Redsleeves [M26] - planted 2002, only doing ok
    Roter Mond [M26] - planted 2011, don't know yet
    Sam Young [M106] - (Irish cultivar) planted 2001, very good
    Uncle John's Cooker [M106]- (Irish cultivar) planted 2001, very good
    Winston Winter King (M26)- planted 2001, struggles to ripen

    2012 was a very difficult year weatherwise with the worst summer in 26 years. Other folks I've talked to who grow some apples had little or no harvest, so 2012 is a good yardstick for which cultivars perform at all under difficult conditions.
    Our best performers, as every year, were Katy/Katja and Emneth Early/Early Victoria, both had a heavy crop. Emneth Early was particularly impressive given that its soil was waterlogged pretty much the entire year. Katy is in a more well drained location.
    Other varieties that made some reasonable contribution (read: a dozen or two fruit), given the year that was in it, were Grenadier, Cavan Sugarcane, Uncle John's Cooker, Charles Ross, Irish Peach, James Grieve, Jonagold, Ballyvaughan Seedling . Note that half of these are old Irish cultivars.

    Of course there are many other varieties out there (see irishseedsavers.ie, orangepippin.com with attribute search feature in progress at https://www.orangepippintrees.com/search.aspx) but these are the ones I have trialled. They were selected for northern regions, cold clay, disease-resistance etc., represent a good mix of eaters, cookers, and dual-purpose varieties, cover early eaters to late storage apples and all pollination groups. Availability was also a factor and was more limited when I started. New disease-resistant cultivars are being bred all the time, specifically with a view to organic production. And in the US a whole range of other varieties is on offer.
    Some of the cultivars I have planted have not yet been able to prove their worth, some have done very well in better years, such as my Dabinett cider apple, James Grieve, Sam Young and Mrs. Perry.

    For what it's worth...
     
  6. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    We have planted sunchokes 2x with no results. Likely to wet. We tried a 3rd time this past summer in another location and will see this summer. We eat goose tongue, beach asparagus and all the berries.
     
  7. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    That's curious alright. Hope they will do better for you in the new location.
    This article https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.2740600209/abstract entitled "Helianthus tuberosus as an alternative forage crop for cool maritime regions: A preliminary study of the yield and nutritional quality of shoot tissues from perennial stands" concludes that sunchokes are a rather promising crop in areas like yours and mine.

    I picked up a bunch of half-dead dried-out tubers (likely 'Fuseau') last spring and put them in the ground in a small orchard with some hay mulch on top and 4 or 5 of them came back to life and grew quite well. So I bought in 30 tubers each of two additional varieties ('Lola' and 'Gigant') with a view to using the tubers as an addition to the chicken ration and the tops for the goats. They'll be planted on vacated chicken ground to take up the nitrogen left behind by the birds. Fingers crossed. If they do well I'll bulk them up and expand the area.
    What is beach asparagus?
     
  8. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    Thanks for the link. The first 2x we put them in the ground. This last time we waited until they started sprouting then simply put mulch on them much like it sounds you did.
     
  9. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    Where would one get Malus sieversii seeds? We are saving the seeds from all the apples we buy here in Mongolia and will try them at our place. Also have seeds from regional sea buckthorn, pumpkins, chinese pumpkin.

    Here is a link for the Beach Asparagus: https://www.seaweedsofalaska.com/species.asp?SeaweedID=156

    It is great steamed or pickled.

    Forgot to add am also experimenting with wild rice.
     
  10. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    Mine are probably not pure. A friend in Germany had a ten year old M.s. tree and send me some apples but they may have been pollinated by M. communis (domesticated apple). The one I have on the (drained) fen peat is an exceedingly healthy looking tree. Only trouble is that it flowers very early and most years the flowers get hit by late frost. It had a few fruit in 2011 but the birds were quicker. Must net them next time.

    Contact Dawn.Dellefave [at] ARS.USDA.GOV Another German lad I know through a forum wrote to USDA on foot of a documentary about this trip: https://www.ars.usda.gov/Aboutus/docs.htm?docid=6310
    and they sent him M. sieversii seeds to grow out (for free and with detailed instructions!)

    Thanks. We have a Salicornia species here too; didn't know they were edible.

    Would love to hear more about that!
     
  11. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    Wow, I'll contact the USDA via the link pdq! I'll report on the results, also about the rice.
     
  12. Synergy

    Synergy Junior Member

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    Since I am delving into this from the perspective of adding permaculture to a small horse breeding farm , I have not kept much for records . We are located 7 miles off the coast on the pacific ocean on the 49th parallel US/Canada border , at 120 metre elevation, US zone 8, with 4 acres total of reasonably good soils with clay ammended by top dressing with horse still bedding over the years . Our situation is on a valley ridge with a gentle south sloping aspect and the only commercial enterprise in my immediate area is a vineyard growing white grape varieties . My experience to date suggests that concord grapes and oriental kiwi produce nice crops almost every two years, though the oriental kiwi took 7 years to establish before fruiting. I planted about 20 varieties of apple but thus far the only mature enough and reliable fruiting is from a largely untended granny smith apple tree . Mixed plantings including kales, swiss chard, lettuce , beets, turnip, leeks garlic, cilantro , parsley , pac choi and chickweed all seem to be surviving under poly coldframes ( recycled bedframes with poly draped over ) seem to be harvestable despite week long freezing below 0 celsius at present . Raspberries, himalyan blackberries and blueberries all see to thrive . I could write a much longer list of things I seem to be failing at spectacularily for one reason or another . One thing I am thinking to note is a potted bears lime has survived all week outside in temperatures below freezing . Last year it lost all its leaves when brought inside the heated house for the winter season in a low light location . I have been able to pasture horses with trees planted with four pallets around them offering some protection but I had in mind the intent of establishing a food forest with glens for grazing a smaller livestock as my goal , not horses. My ducks and chickens free range in the day and have to be secured at night due to raccoons and coyote. In time as I will add more feedback.
     
  13. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  15. Synergy

    Synergy Junior Member

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    I do think the addition of 'borrowed' resources from foraging in nature is such an advantage and also taking responsibility of stewardship in the welfare of that natural environment as well. Where I am at present in an area of suburban small acreages that is less present but I also feel uneasy in this setting. And I am like a fish out of water in an urban setting . I feel more inclined to feel 'right' when there is more natural setting around my little hub zone around my small acreage I tend . This is reoccurring inner conflict for me .
     
  16. wynot

    wynot Junior Member

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    Wow, spent a good part of the morning going through the guide. Thanks! I had not found a satisfactory guide until now. I grew up on the "other coast" and have a lot of catch-up to do. This guide will help a lot.
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Your welcome, and I have the same coastal problem. :rofl::clap:
     
  18. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    re wild rice:
    Synergy's mention of wild rice has prompted me to look into this some more. I found a 1998 article entitled "Wild rice - a potential new crop for Finland" (https://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/AFS/article/view/5618) and from the climate data given there it seems Z. palustris might actually be able to grow in my locale (though I'm not sure if it doesn't need more chilling in winter). Given that the article is relatively old I contacted the lead author in Finland for a quick update and possible seed source but haven't received a reply. Would anyone know where I could get some viable Z. palustris seeds to give this a try?
     
  19. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I knew someone long ago that did his master's or doctorate on wild rice and he was going on about there is over 40,000 known varieties of rice. I have no sources for that specific variety, but I do know that both Fedco & Baker Creek Heirlooms both are selling rice this year to the public. One if for a flooding terrace system, the other is not. Perhaps you can get information from both of them?
     
  20. chook-in-eire

    chook-in-eire Junior Member

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    Thanks, Pak, I checked the sites - they sell Oryza sativa which is the "normal" rice. I am looking for Zizania palustris, the Northern wild rice. Oryza would have a snowball's chance in hell of growing here ;)
     

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