dryland fire-retarding trees and bushes

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by christopher79, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. christopher79

    christopher79 Junior Member

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    I'm in fire-endangered southern Portugal. the danger exacerbated by foolish eucalypt monoculturing I am looking for drought-resistant and fire-retardant trees and bushes to plant on my hillsides along which I am hand-digging miles of swales. Preferably nitrogen-fixing too... please any ideas - and preferably how to aquire the seeds of them!

    many thanks - chris
     
  2. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Chris
    We had a massive wildfire here in Jan 2005 that burned everything , the only plant that shut the fire down was lucerne , there are varieties of dryland lucerne that are pretty tough once established . Damage was minimal where the fire wasnt able to get into the tree canopy , you will know which direction the greatest threat comes from so dont have a canopy corridor that a fire can run through , forrests are good and sound romantic but they can kill in high fire prone areas . For those who dont understand these are areas that often have stinking hot temperatures AND scary high wind at the same time . I havnt bothered with the fire retardent thinking because i dont beleive it will make much difference on the really bad days , i keep the ground cleaned up with my horses and i trim the trees up that shade the poultry so fire cannot run up them .
    Rob
     
  3. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    I saw some impressive photos of a patch of big succulents (probably one of the agave from memory) along side a house. A bush fire had burnt everything to a crisp right up to the succulents, which appeared untouched.
     
  4. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I've been told that agapanthus is fire repellant. But you can't eat it - so not so useful.
     
  5. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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  6. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    9 min in, Sugar Palms are fire-resistant.

    Not a dryland-type plant though. Sorry.
     
  7. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    David Holmgren has some writings and videos about preparing for bushfire that might be helpful, he lists several bushfire resistant trees including Oaks, Ash, Poplars, Sycamore, Apples, Holly, Elderberry, Hawthorn and Cherry Laurel. He especially praises the Oak as fire resistant and valuable. They are also drought tolerant.

    https://www.holmgren.com.au/
     
  8. christopher79

    christopher79 Junior Member

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    Thanks all - I should say that the surrounding vegetation is not eucalypt but low (2 meters or so) flammable scrub, so Rob, wildfires are not the full-on destructive force that you are talking about. So my thinking is to plant and establish an ecosystem of non-flammable nitrogen-fixing trees (the soil is pretty poor, mostly due to bad practices in the last 50 years) which can break the fire cycle. The original indigenous ecosystem was mixed oak and arbutus, and fire would still have occurred but only on the under-storey level.

    I will check out Agapanthus - the trees don't all need to be edible. So far I want to try Pithecellobium dulce ("manila tamarind" - but not actually a tamarind) - but have not found a source of the seeds - I sent away from 2 companies but didn't receive any - and other Tamarinds are interesting. Are there any fire-retardant Acacias/Mimasas that anyone knows of? Also of course I am putting in many acorns and chestnuts. And most important of all -anyone know a good source of seeds????

    Many thanks, Chris.
     
  9. Solaris

    Solaris Junior Member

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    Nitrogen fixing canopy tree...100% productable...= Moringa.

    Various tree associations are to be found with some particular dominant species, for instance, with Anogeissus; with Isoberlinia-Uapaca-Monites; with tan leguminous Burkea-Erythrophleum tetrapleura-Prosopis; with Parkia-Pterocarpus; with Brachystegia-Isoberlina; with Cryptosephalum; with Detarium-Parinari-Afzelia; with Combretum-Terminalia; with Anogeissus-Boswellia. Such associations are still to be found forming sizable forests in southern Africa (Northern Rhodesia, Katanga, Angola), and to a lesser extent in Ubangi-Shari, in French Guinea, and in Casamance.

    Michael Koren: [FONT=&quot]Remnant rainforest - "vine scrub" or "monsoon forest" exists all through the dry northern parts of Australia - palms, vines, figs - rainforest plants speciated to great heat and isolation from a jungle of its fellows - exists in gorges, chasms - great cracks that hold water and nurture fauna/flora(micro/macro). Where I camp, near Malanda in the midst of milk moocows and bare dirt farmers recent rich volcanics on the Atherton Tablelands, there are great tracts of logged rainforest called World Heritage no longer held together by vine communities (once pre-colonial creating a single organism that survives cyclonic monsoonal ravage with interwoven canopies and associated moisture/temperature/nutrient constancies - trees breathe out cool moist air) - tree species in this rain/cloud forest number roughly 1200 and vine species 1400 - composed of a mix of Wallacean species that extend right up into Burma, India - endemic species (ie continent-consciousness created in chasm mist lightning genetics) and species that stretch right down to the south coast - relics from cooler climate Gondwana - (I have fossil specimens of horsetail and Nothofagus from central Queensland, the Casuarina Equisetium and Allocasuarina (beach and river sheoak) has similar whorl of leaf structure on a needle in whispering bunches - Mary White's books "The Greening of Gondwana" ) - apparently this now mainly coastal rainforest migrated? to the coast (bird and animal shit? humans? wind? different waterflows?) some 7 - 10,000 years ago when oceans rose. Previously here was wet sclerophyll and Agathis, Araucaria - ancient pine species(this info based on pollen samples collected in Butcher's Creek crater - CSIRO, I think) - supposedly eucalypts invented here on the Tablelands, by this country. The species seed bank for regeneration of the inland and the river systems is here in the myriadical forests of the East Coast.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The scientific community and aware mobs understand the urgent urgent need for revegetation and riverine rescue very well. However, sacred property rights and power control of law, post colonial and globalised land[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]control, "democratic" power structures, world investment and wealth manipulation cartels, agri-business, the live cattle business, the generals in Java and big Chinese business, the lamb butchers in the middle East, even the meek Labour party which considers the complex carbon trading instead of the simple community gardens (offending the food distribution and marketing megaliths thus employment and mortgage/property hierarchies) can't even imagine proposing the social changes necessary and remaining "in Power"..[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Because to beautify (in the sense of sanctify) landscape, diversity and waterflow means a change in basic cultural economic, social behavioural patterns imposed,seconded and legislated and linguified into human clusters over the last 700 years (originating in the Roman Empire and Mediterranean- Persian area - but that's another complex story) at least.[/FONT]
     
  10. pippimac

    pippimac Junior Member

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    I'll just add that I'd be wary of agapanthus. It's a real pain over here: a super invasive, snail paradise with toxic roots.
    'It's from Soth Africa, so it might be right at home in Portugal's climate:shake:
     
  11. christopher79

    christopher79 Junior Member

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    moringa sounds interesting - but among all the hype i can't find any comment on how it burns! any knowledge?
     
  12. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Show me the source on that? It may be a Miracle tree, but not that much of a miracle.
     
  13. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    As you wish....
    https://www.moringatreefoundation.org/
     
  14. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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  15. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I have been to a few fire fighting sessions with my local CFA. Their advice.

    1. Leave early.
    2. Anything in the fire front is fuel if it is hot enough, including you.
    3. As a fire front approaches bring your fire fighting hoses inside (and yourself) as once the front has passed they are not much good if they are melted.
    4. (From Bill M.) mount a 60-100m diameter agri sprinkler on your roof.
    5. If you don't have a non electric fire fighting pump and your own water supply. Leave early.
    6. If you think you would want to try and fight a fire, buy some good flame/heat proof gear so you have 0% of exposed skin, air tight goggles are among the many other things you would need.
    7. Have a place of last resort, concrete pipe buried in soil. (with red wine optional)

    This is a pretty good talk on the topic by Bill Mollison, free MP3 links on the bottom of the page.
    https://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/audio.htm
     
  16. christopher79

    christopher79 Junior Member

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    Thanks again for your help. Just to ask again about Moringa, has anyone heard any information as to how it burns?? And is it invasive? And any info on a place to aquire seeds - not on moringa in particular but tree and bush seeds in general? - this is the trickiest aspect of being here in Portugal, while I am planting natives, there are many trees I would like to establish that are not available in the mediterranean, but which could be of much benefit to the land.
     
  17. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    From a quick googling, I came across one PDF relating to fire risk in natural ecosystems and the answer was No. Source :www.hear.org/pier/wra/pacific/moringa_oleifera_htmlwra.htm

    Not to say, it wouldn't burn easily in a fire.

    And the invasive question, I watched a video last night and said that yes, it can spread. You are to manage the seed by coppicing most, if not all of the trees, allowing only some to reach maturity for seed collection. Though if the 'Miracle Tree' or the 'Tree Of Life' were to escape, are you really that bad of a person?

    Technical Docs: https://www.moringanews.org/biblio_en.html

    Fairly extensive PDF: https://www.avrdc.org/LC/indigenous/moringa.pdf

    Brochure on Moringa (including dietary breakdown): https://www.treesforlife.org/sites/default/files/documents/English moringa_book_view.pdf
     
  18. christopher79

    christopher79 Junior Member

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    Thanks very much SOP - great stuff! - just the information that I have been banging my head trying to access - ok maybe I need a little practice at googling. but now I am getting a feel of what this Moringa tree is about - not critical. it does sound interesting and I would like to try growing it on my hills here in s. portugal But even better I now know how to seek the info on other trees too

    Still need a source of seeds though! Any answers to that??????

    Thanks again - Chris
     
  19. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Any where I read with comments, there are people flogging off seeds. On another Aussie forum, someone came in offering 800 pounds of seeds!

    The trees for life site, or was it another one, has phone numbers for contacts.
     
  20. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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