Cynodon dactylon

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by insipidtoast, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    All flowery rhetoric aside about occupying a vacant niche, how do you get rid of Bermuda grass? Am I just supposed to wait until my trees get huge to shade out the grass? When that happens the trees will also be shading out my veggies. I can't put in guinea pigs, because they will nibble at the veggies in addition to the grass. Also, the pathways are not shady, so it seems like Bermuda grass will keep on colonizing the pathways.

    My original thought was to stop caring about it, but then you get a client who doesn't want it, and all your permaculture laziness goes out the window.
     
  2. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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  3. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Infect the client with laziness too? You'd have to find another plant to outcompete it. One that served the same purpose as the bermuda grass. That's the big challenge...
     
  4. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    That pdf isn't going to give you the answers you need. I just read it and you may find it depressing.
     
  5. adiantum

    adiantum Junior Member

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    I dealt with bermuda the 20 years I lived in GA, and here we have it in CA. I don't think the naturally dry summer here is too hospitable for it, but it got introduced into an irrigated garden area so I'm back to "plan Georgia" again. The best solution is cardboard and paper sheetmulch, thick, overlapping, complete, and preferably left for a whole season without trying to plant anything into or through it. But most of us want something to eat, in addition to no bermuda. If you plant stuff through the sheetmulch the first year, the bermuda will come up around the plants. Vigorous transplanted things like brassicas, tomatoes, or sweet potatoes will still produce a good crop. Then you have to sheetmulch again the next year, and the next....forever. Thin sheetmulch with stuff planted through it is a means of bermuda control, not eradication. As handy as it might be for other purposes, don't put any kind of permanent edging down in the garden like hard raised beds. Once the bermuda roots get up next to and under those edges it will be next to impossible to get it all out of there....
    In a very small area, you can dig out the entire soil volume down to a foot or more and sift the lot through a screen, discarding every scrap of root. Replace the soil inside of a stout edging to prevent it from creeping back in from outside. The few sprigs that escape can be hand-pulled and will be gone soon.
    On a larger scale....it's an excellent summer forage, and is grown as a hay and pasture crop in the South. You are right in that it will not thrive in the full shade of established trees. Even a very dense summer cover of something like winter squash or sweet potato will tame it somewhat, but the trick is to get these plants to establish and take off. Sheet mulching circles, say 3 or 4 feet in diameter around each hill or plant might give them the edge.
     
  6. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    So, basically there's no way to ever get rid of it.
     
  7. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Yes but not in a hurry. It's going to take years of focus. Two plants can't occupy the exact same niche in time and space, so my trick to weed removal is succession planting. Just pulling stuff out and leaving it bare is an open invitation for regrowth.
     
  8. adiantum

    adiantum Junior Member

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    Eradication? Sure. Choose your method:
    1. Complete flooding, submerging all parts of the plant. Two or three weeks should do the trick.
    2. Drought. No water whatsoever. Give it a year (or two just to be sure).
    3. Freezing the soil to the depth of all rhizomes. One or two Zone 3 winters should do it.
    4. Pave the area. Don't leave any cracks!
    5. Herbicides.

    Probably 95% eradication could be accomplished by any of the following methods :
    1. Rototill the area once a week for a whole year.
    2. Cover the area with two thicknesses of carpet or something similar, overlapping. Two years.
    3. Establish a dense cover crop taller than bermuda can reach, leave for 5 to 10 years. No bermuda. But then you have the challenge of getting rid of the antagonist crop! First contenders that come to mind include kudzu and English ivy. Of course most such plants are as bad, or worse, than bermuda itself. Kudzu and bermuda are at least decent forages, while ivy in quantity is poison.

    Yeah, I guess I've resigned myself to living with it the rest of my days. It will win in the end. My only hope is to get some food out of the space anyway!
     
  9. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    The area I'm talking about is in an establishing woodland setting, so all of those methods would affect all the other plants.

    Why not just spray glyphosate on it? Would that affect plants growing nearby? -probably would at least affect the soil microorganisms. I've never researched herbicides, but I'm considering it. I just was always taught, "they're bad" so I never bothered to do any research in their favor or against their favor.

    I just can't imagine what organic farmers do when the grass invades their fields. There has to be some sort of pygmy gazelle in eastern Africa that slurps down the spreading rhizomes like spaghetti.
     
  10. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    In the 2 part series, Edible forest gardens volumes 1 & 2, there is a chap doing the same as you Insipid, but deep sheet mulch, with instant succession planting on top.

    Try page 47, volume 1.


    On the flip side, I am learning to work with the grasses, and crowd them out using E. Hazelip's synergistic system for 2 sets of 3 beds for kitchen food production.
     
  11. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    Looks like nature found a way to stump the permaculture folks. The name? Bermuda Grass.

    Tried planting succulent groundcovers - It wiggles through those.
    Tried growing sweet potato - It wiggles through that

    "You'd have to find another plant to outcompete it. One that served the same purpose as the bermuda grass. That's the big challenge... "
    So, you mean another grass that's just as invasive? How about something that your average client would actually want?

    Succession planting was mentioned. Sounds like another hopeful, permaculture buzzword....The hope that the grass actually runs its course and dies out on its own eventually. If that's even true, how long is eventually? Does some sort of fungus destroy it after awhile?

    My hypothesis is based on acknowledging the plant is native to African savannas. Trying to pull it and tear it out of the ground, will only add to its vigor, since the person doing the weeding is just mimicking the stimulation provided by grazing animals in the plant's natural habitat. I've seen the health of grassland ecosystems almost completely decline when national park boundaries were declared, and grazing animals were fenced out of the equation.

    So what's the story with phasing out Cynodon dactylon in the homestead setting? Does anyone have practical experience with that? I'm tired of hearing the usual advice of pull pull pull, and do this do that. Most of that advice is not even practical when you're dealing with an establishing multi-layer food forest setting where nearly every square meter contains at least one specimen plant. Even pulling the grass often uproots nearby smaller, desirable plants in the process. Sheet mulching doesn't work, because there are already too many other plants growing.

    So let's hear the scoop on succession (we're assuming that's even feasible - I've seen individual sections of stem etiolate up to 2 feet in height just to reach some light).

    Again, I can't imagine if an organic farmer had to deal with this stuff in their fields. - The constant sun, moisture, organic fertilizer, etc. You might as well just stop planting your crops, let the Bermuda take over, and start raising some microlivestock for meat and dairy.


    Pakanoihda, Would you mind explaining what you referenced, for those of us who don't know or don't have access to what you're talking about?
     
  12. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Hazelip Synergistic? Uhm, new thread coming.
     
  13. Dean125

    Dean125 New Member

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    Thanks for sharing.
     
  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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  15. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Very welcome. :)
     
  16. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    Thanks for posting this, pak. She has such a cute spanish accent. I love it! I see its for market gardens, however. I remember seeing those videos before. Like most of the permaculture videos I've seen, they present things from a very broad perspective and do not address very specific issues. I suppose the assumption is that if one adopts the techniques, then they will not ever have headaches to deal with. ​
    What would they do if they lived in Kudzu country?​
    What I want is more of a scientific approach to permaculture. I enjoy reading scientific articles describing experiments in which control groups are designated, and various methods are applied to the key issue.​
    Unfortunately, I have not studied mainstream agriculture or ecology very much, so it is hard for me to state specifics about the following. Yet, some areas are more adapted towards supporting certain kinds of plants...such as grasses...such as Bermuda grass. For instance, there are prairie grasslands without any trees or shrubs, so I can imagine that there would be a constant "war" on grasses when trying to plant a garden or food forest in such areas.​
    I've created the conditions necessary for Bermuda grass to grow, obviously. However, when one researches Bermuda grass, they will quickly discover that just about any condition will support its growth. It would be interesting to hear Hazlelip address something specific like Bermuda grass, or whatever the equivalent is in France. Too often, I hear permaculture charlatans (for lack of a better word) mentioning how weeds can be "stacked out" or "phased out" or "succeeded." On the other hand, I don't believe I've seen or heard any specific examples.​
    “Stacking out” probably works wonders for small, common weeds like dandelions and malva, but I don’t see things so straightforward in the context of serious invasive weeds. Try keeping Cheat grass out of your homestead if you live in the Great Basin of North America. ​
    I prefer the mentality that the weeds are serving a function for the entire system. Still, if you want a garden in prairie grassland, then it's not very nice to tell people that they should just accept that their grasses with 10foot deep roots are actually helping them. No, they are a nuisance, taking up valuable space where nutrient-dense veggies need to be produced, because people need to eat their organic veggies.​
    Through my own experience, I’ve dispelled the myth that Bermuda grass is going to “choke out” my other plants. I would say that’s probably true for strawberries, and likely other typical garden crops. The areas where Bermuda grass is most vigorous are the areas where chunks of inverted sod have been stacked on top of each other. In my mind (this is simply a conjecture) the Bermuda grass is infusing those chunks of clay sod with organic matter (roots, stems, etc) which will eventually turn into humus, and “blend” the clay with the organic matter, converting the disturbed soil into a nice clay loam. I’ve noticed that the rhizomes love to “snake” through the gaps between the chunks of clay. ​
    The tree with the most Bermuda grass (by far) that was growing around its trunk was actually the tree that ended up growing A LOT more vigorously than the other specimens of the same species. Also, some shrubs with Bermuda grass ended up growing a lot more vigourously than the same shrubs without Bermuda grass. The shrubs without Bermuda grass were even growing in richer soil.​
    Quite frankly I think it’s a lie that Bermuda grass is going to choke out other plants in a food forest. It’s an adequate living mulch, and its vigorous root system helps make my heavy clay soil more friable. The only reason not to have it is because people think it “looks bad,” and I have to agree. During the dry season, the grass turns brown, and that can be quite a turn off aesthetically. ​
    I find that Bermuda grass will be outcompeted by sweet potato in semi-shade, but not in full sun.​
    Currently, I’m experimenting with the succulent species, Disphyma crassifolium subsp. clavellatum to see whether or not it can outcompete the Bermuda grass as the groundcover for more open parts of the establishing food forest. This first year, the succulent took off, but the Bermuda grass still managed to poke through, so it’s about 50/50. As the succulents age, I’m expecting them to become thicker and more dense, and thus more successful at smothering the Bermuda grass. The succulent’s drought-tolerance IS superior to that of Bermuda grass, which gives it the edge.​
    We are now entering the heart of the summer dry season, and the Bermuda grass is starting to turn brown, whereas the succulents have not even begun to turn red (their response to drought stress).​
    In conclusion, Bermuda grass is a serious issue without an easy remedy in market gardens. In food forests, it can negatively affect certain plants, but is likely only a problem during the first couple years before the perennials establish themselves. It is also a problem if one does not have a drought-tolerant and shade-tolerant groundcover.​
    Feel free to add your Bermuda grass observations, either positive or negative.​

    But yeah, I don't think you can ever get rid of it without using herbicides. Even then, seeds are everywhere.
     
  17. insipidtoast

    insipidtoast Junior Member

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    One more thing:

    If the pathways are not paved, then the Bermuda grass WILL colonize the pathways! There is no getting rid of it.
     
  18. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Hazelip Synergistic PDF 25 Page PDF regarding the Synergistic system on larger scale, such as Cotton with notes.
     
  19. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

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    Thanks for this article Inspiditoast, I have for some time struggling with Bermuda grass that has taken nearly a third of the garden area. I have a clay soil that is full of channels that Bermuda grass use to spread. I noticed that compost helps to quickly develop vegetable and shade grasses, while it is easier to pull out rhizomes and not to broke therm. The amount of compost needed for this make this observation just that, observation.
    It is excellent for driveway, and i use clippings for mulching. I have Mellisa between driveway and garden which is a relatively good barrier. Comfrey is good competitor for Bermuda grass, also Comfrey mulch.

    Take a deep breath and count to ten, or more .... :)
     
  20. StanishInquisition

    StanishInquisition New Member

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    Hey all! I've been attempting to deal with bermuda in my suburban lot in the mid-southern US for the last growing season. I've found a compound approach utilizing broad, thick sheet mulching with three layers of mattress boxes or two of large all cotton sheets, and up to a foot of chips in places was mostly effective at setting back the stuff(for the time being). With this you must overlap at least 3 feet and minimize all edges as much as possible. If you plant into the mulch, it is highly advisable to leave the barrier intact. The bermuda will find its way to building or fence edges, through insufficiently sheeted gaps between cardboard,and through any random holes in your barrier. At these points you can either hand-weed/patch mulch or staple some kind of thick weed cloth to the perimeter to block it as much as possible. Keep in mind that what bermuda excels at is snaking through gaps--it can grow through cement buildings if there is a small gap in the masonry. But, if you minimize exploitable gaps and monitor unavoidable ones, you go a long way to preventing its encroachment. You should do this at the beginning of the growing season, not in the off season, because a biodegraded barrier is no barrier at all. Your goal should be to deprive the grass of its growing season, and in my area this means mulching in spring and doing my best to patch-mulch and even hand weed throughout the summer. As mentioned earlier, hand weeding is highly inefficient with the structure of bermuda, as it tends to break off at nodes and uses your pulling force to elevate its highest node towards the surface. So basically you are simply telling it where to grow when you pluck it unless you patch-sheet-mulch over the node you just pulled to the surface.

    Another technique I've found useful in the case of a neighboring yard filled with bermuda is the incorporation of perimeter contour swales as a kind of maginot line (an appropriate analogy, I suppose), preferably in circular shape to minimize edge, and preferably doubling as some kind of path bordered on the exterior by a vigorous hedge or cover crop like sorghum-sudangrass, which comes in sterile varieties and thus will not become its own problem... Typically berms are constructed in double-dig fashion, but I've actually flipped the soil construction so that the subsoil is on top, meaning it holds far fewer rhizomes at the surface where they will tend to sprout. You can then patch mulch/cover crop/pave/hand weed this section to hold the line, depending on how it fits into your design. Ideally you will establish a very dense perennial cover on your perimeter which blocks intrusion with copious shade and dense roots over a large enough area. I'm still researching what will work best for this in my area (any suggestions greatly appreciated). A deep rhizome barrier is highly beneficial in this case, as well.

    At this point I am approaching the dormant autumn period, when I will plant trees, densely plant out guilds that create shade and fill space, as well as acquire more mulching materials for patch mulching when the stuff inevitably returns next growing season. I think the key with this stuff is timing. If you plant into your mulch too soon, there is no way of eliminating edge around all your plantings. If you plant too late, it will break through no matter how dense a barrier you have used and do what it does best, conquer open sunny space. So ideally you set it back with mulch for a growing season (or two if you're young and bold/energetic), then plant dense perennials, and give those perennial plantings as much of a head start as possible. If you can establish dense shade in key areas and patch mulch vigilantly, the stuff will of course lose its advantage. It may never disappear, but it will at least be manageable in this case. You can then use it to create compost tea or something to at least give the weeding sessions some kind of usefulness.

    One interesting strategy I have not tried is a combination of multiple harrowing sessions (tilling and pulling rhizomes to the surface where they die in the sun) over a period of weeks, followed by cover crops. There was a paper I read claiming to have done this in the middle of a bermuda field for an annual garden, and it seems to have worked based on the pictures they provided. Unfortunately I am struggling to find this paper at the moment, though I'm sure some googling would turn it up.

    So to sum up my still inchoate ideas on the subject:
    -always minimize edge when mulching, patch mulch when it exploits your mistakes. Hand weed/patch mulch as a last resort.
    -use earthworks or hard barriers with dense shade hedges/cover crops to establish highly resistant perimeters...try to incorporate these parts of your plan into the design to have your paths/walls/structures, etc do double duty for you.
    -think hard about timing of perennial plantings--if you don't the bermuda will simply recolonize at the next available growing season.
    -with larger areas think about harrowing/covering cropping with sterile sorghum/sudangrass(also an excellent biomass plant and has properties that reduce harmful nematodes if I remember correctly)

    This stuff gave me nightmares for a while, until I tried to understand it. Most of the papers I've read are infused with really scary rhetoric about it and don't give you good info on what you can try if you don't have any other options, but I find that attitude irresponsible and lazy. There is a section in Edible Forest Gardens, which deals with temperate climate, that discusses Martin Crawford's strategy in planting out a quackgrass field, and it also has some interesting points. He basically used thick weed cloth to cover sections for a year, and then advanced the cloth across the field season by season, section by section, planting densely behind it. I've never dealt with quackgrass, but I've read it has similar properties (rhizome/stolon/seed propagation, expansive, etc.). So it can be done with either a lot of hard work or a lot of patience (preferably both). Hope my rambling helps someone, I'd love to hear any more ideas!
     

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