22nd Century Urban Agriculture Or Traditional Permaculture

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Bientum, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. Bientum

    Bientum New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I read an article on the 14th of March 2012 by Julian Cribb about the future of food production. Its all about the industrial food system getting bigger and better and different. Previous to this I read Salatin's latest book which is the opposite to Cribb's ideas. Salatin is all about traditional farming without negative affects on the environment and us. Anyway, I then looked at Cribb's book, and found one bad review. The reviewer said that Cribb did not know about people like Salatin. Cribb's ideas are idealistic, and only theory at this stage. What are your opinions? Will a major global recession/depression occur and we will all go back to local food production? Or will there be no recession? I think we're headed back into the old days myself.
     
  2. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    If he doesn't know about Salatin (who has gotten tons of press), he doesn't know about folks like Michael Pollan (writes about food, tons of press), or probably about folks like Mollison, Holmgren, Lawton, etc. Meaning he's somewhat ignorant of the subject of growing food!

    I see a strong trend toward local food production. I'm somewhat of a peak oil doomer, so I don't see industrial agriculture continuing past the middle of this century, at the most (giving it about a hundred year run). I really hope we're not heading back to the "old days" which weren't that great with soil loss due to plough agriculture, overgrazing, deforestation etc etc. I like to think we'll have a permacultural future. That's me trying not to be a doomer! :)
     
  3. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Permaculture is abundance. You stack everything you can into every available niche and make it productive. We stop logging natural areas, turn our backs and start stacking from whence we came. Instead of talking about the latest reality show, primary conversation will be what is working where, why and how you are managing it. Nearly everyone can contribute something. And, unfortunately for some, eating habits have to change.

    Without reading the book, and without forming comment about it, how exactly does the industrial food system get "better and different"? Because, even in theory something can be valid. What's the next big idea?
     
  4. Dzionik

    Dzionik Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is nonsense, even China had a surplus of food while doing traditional agriculture. Most countries today produces more food than they can spend, the surplus are strategic raw materials. The real question is the question of water and its availability for agriculture and life in general. And water is a matter of good permacultural practise, afforestation, biodiversity, and soil conservation. And right education.
     
  5. Bientum

    Bientum New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ultimate Decision

    Cribb was talking about the world's population doubling in the next few decades. He was talking about eating algae like eating potatoes.

    I reached a point in my life where I can do a Masters in Agricultural Engineering and join the Industrial Food Production Industry, or become a Nurse in Aged Care and look after the wealthy baby boomers they are the last ones with any money. It came down to the fact that I don't believe we will continue exponentially doubling debt, population, food production, etc. But until it all comes collapsing down, I'll need an income, so Nursing it is. I know I could become a small scale permaculturalist and teach local community customers to feed themselves, but they won't be interested in that until they see it on the news in their country, Australia. So, here's my career counsel for anyone without any money, work in Aged Care until oil runs out, then teach locals how to grow stuff.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Urban ag is part of city permaculture, however industrialized chemical, or even alchemical ag is not part of humanities future. That system failed, move on already.
     
  7. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    100% agree. Let's move into the 21st century already, which should be a century of permaculture, in my opinion. Industrial ag is SO 20th Century, behind the times.
     
  8. TheDirtSurgeon

    TheDirtSurgeon Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think there needs to be a balance. Most people involved somehow with permaculture or organic growing in general seem to be city folk, and that's fine. In the US, something like 70% of the entire country's fresh produce comes from California's Central Valley. That's not only stupid, insane, and petrol dependent, but they're pumping the aquifers dry and salting the soil. They're just not going to be able to continue the production there.

    So a healthy focus on urban ag is necessary. There's no reason the vegetables consumed in Chicago can't be produced within Chicago, or within 20 miles or so. Building greenhouses everywhere makes a lot more sense than trucking tomatoes 1500 miles.

    What people seem to forget is that meat production in cities is frowned upon. And logistically impossible.

    We can't take an all-or-nothing approach -- "everything must be done x way" -- there's more than one way to skin a cat.
     
  9. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Some meat production in the city is possible. Folks used to raise poultry in the cities, even large cities like London in the 19th century (famous literary example Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Blue Carbuncle"). So I agree with you about not taking an all-or-nothing approach. It is not logistically impossible to raise meat in the city, though it is likely impractical to raise all meat in the city. The large cities of the past were surrounded by intensive small farms. I think that's a plausible future. I can also see the possibility of extensive raising of meat in natural settings such as returning large portions of the central US to prairie and the bison.
     
  10. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    First define meat... Anyone could easily raise fish, crayfish (yabbies), guinea pigs, rabbits, snails, and more in a city.

    https://youtu.be/2BEtplkio0A
     
  11. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I agree, Pak! If we're having permaculture gardens in the city, we probably want to include animals in some form - preferably several forms. :)
     
  12. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,215
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    A bit of sensible town planning wouldn't go astray either!

    The idea of 'green belts' and 'green wedges' has been around for a long time. Unfortunately, they seem to take on more of a urban park style implementation. But if they were constructed more as productive wedges there could easily be cows wandering around as close as a few kms from CBD's. It doesn't even really take that much vision. It is the Will that is missing.
     
  13. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Locally in the Brisbane north suburbs, and I'm sure you all do it, I drive around and spot locations for good-sized productive areas. Around here, we have acres upon acres of fallow ex-cow farm, acres of empty mowed parks, private residences with acres of grass all within 50km of a city centre (and inner burbs are just the same).

    Brisbane is blessed with a lot of space, a lot of wasted space and it may never change in my lifetime.

    Does anyone remember the picture of a European development made of circular suburbs backing onto their own 'private' park? That could easily be a tended food forest in any situation.
     
  14. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Do you think growing food in urban areas will cause people to think that "normal" farming in the country is not necessary? Some people seem worried about this, that the local urban food movement is going to put farmers out of business!
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,016
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I hope so.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-07/janda-environmental-costs/3873868?WT.svl=theDrum


    To grow your own food you need skills, land and time,collapse of economic systems will provide the unemployment which will free up the time and drive the need.
    Skills and land can be worked out pretty quickly if hunger drives it.
    Until we start growing grains and pulses or change our diets, I think farmers will still exist,they will just need to be smaller more sustainable and local.
    Long term unless the farmer can be competitive and can produce and deliver his product, to a market that can afford it,he will need to change.
    Against the farmer doing this is the oil price,land degradation,water availability,climate change, global economic downturn,peak phosphates and available finance.

    Long term the the "normal" farmer will be a totally different farmer to what we call "normal" today.
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    urban food can only strengthen the country as a whole IMO
     
  17. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Changing the diet is hard, even on an individual, let alone a societal level. I'm trying to move away from eating grains because it's unlikely I can grow them in much quantity and I don't think they're that good for humans anyway. But changing to a diet with roots and tubers as staples and animal and nut fats as the main calorie source is difficult for me due to my cultural upbringing (lots of noodles and bread). I'd like to see more stories about people eating a permacultural diet, especially if they grow it themselves. :)
     
  18. matto

    matto Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    685
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    16
    This is exactly what Mark Sheperd and his ilk are advocating at forestag.com

    I think Urban Ag and growing veges close to where its eating fits well with bio-regional planning. Grains and animal systems are kind of the zone 3 and 4 in a larger environment, albeit needing to be grown in polycultures and soil building farming systems.
     
  19. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,922
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    G'day Grahame

    Too true! And to this end, some colleagues of mine have been working very hard in this area:

    FSPUD - Food Sensitive Planning and Urban Design

    Cheerio, Markos.
     

Share This Page

-->