How humans are not physically created to eat meat

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Nickolas, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    ;)

    I think I was just stirring the pot Eco, for which I apologise. You know my opinion of commercial science, and probably of compartmentalisation in general.

    Personally, I have seen sickly vegetarians, and sickly omnivores alike. I have been a fit and healthy vegetarian and I have been a less fit and healthy vegetarian at various stages in my life.

    [rant] But most of all, I think wellness is a state of mind, much more than it is a state of what you eat. The way you think about yourself and the way you think about the food you eat has a much more profound effect on you than the food itself. Having said that, you still need to eat appropriate to your inner landscape, to your current thoughts, whilst maintaining awareness of the 'sponsoring thoughts' you have about food. My thoughts are that nutrition and nutritionists have done more harm than good, purely because the whole concept is based on fear, not love. Part of Affluenza is this bizarre obsession with food, given rise from gluttony. Overfed is overfed, regardless of what is fed. We, westerners, are overfed, fat gluttons, obsessed with ourselves. We are kidding ourselves if we imagine for a moment that the environmental and health problems we are facing has anything to do with whether or not we eat meat. It has everything to do with greed, gluttony, ignorance, selfishness and basically our detachment from the nature of things. It has everything to do with our total lack of spiritual connection. It has everything to do with capitalism and supermarkets and advertising and etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. The vegetarian vs omnivore discussion is a distraction at best. We talk some shit, we posture, we blame others but rarely do we take personal responsibility. Any crap going on out there in the world is your crap. Any vegetarian who has a problem with meat eaters, well the problem is yours. Any permie who has a problem with a conventionalist, well that is your doing. The way I see it is that all the crap i see in the world is reflective of all the crap I am harbouring within me. And there in lies the meaning of 'be the change that you wish to see in the world'[/rant]

    I wonder if any of that made any sense?
     
  2. mischief

    mischief Senior Member

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    Yep agree with you there.
    Another point I thought was pertinent, in the link you posted was the term 'processed meats'....what exactly were they eating?
    A steak or a chicken Mcnugget or bits in between,sausages?
    consumers are forcefed toxins in the form of colourants, preservatives,stabilisers sweetners....none of which we really need in our diet and I do wonder just how much damage these do.
    I think these studies are incomplete because they dont appear to take into account what else the person is eating or drinking.
     
  3. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    As long it is a pot of Beef Stew, you are forgiven. ;) And I understood you perfectly. Cambodians didn't make a distinction between vegetarian and non-vegetarian food (odd for a Buddhist country) - much to my friends bemusement as she was trying to avoid eating meat, and ended up with the same prawn salad as me when she asked for a vegetarian dish! When you are hungry you eat whatever you have at hand. It is only when you have the luxury of abundance that you get to make a choice about what you do or do not eat.
     
  4. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    Leaving the shoulds and should nots behind for a while, can the world be vegetarian?

    I saw a survey stating that 1% of Americans were now vegan. Probably not an overly exhaustive survey but Ill give them their 1% for arguments sake. And they are the centre of the latest fads and trends. Now lets pretend 1% of the world is vegan, a stretch I know.

    I read another report saying 40% of the worlds grain supply goes directly to animal feed. Its a popular critique that if cows werent fed corn then there would be more for us, but dont meet too many vegos who have corn as their main staple grain.

    Now if the whole world turned vegetarian tomorrow could the world supply enough grains and pulses to keep up the demand? I know the Holmgrens eat chicken grade grains, but they are the minorities of the western world. I think it totally implausible to even argue the case with supplies and storages dwindling and desertification increasing the worlds deserts.

    Regards,

    Fanatical Vegetarian Lunatic
     
  5. Sezmo

    Sezmo Junior Member

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    Matto, apparently 1% of 'western culture' suffers coeliac disease or gluten intolerance, so for that 1% and the majority of south America and Africa the staple is maize. Mine certainly is as I can't eat wheat, oats, rye, barley or other gluten containing cereals. I don't think I'd want to eat the corn they use as animal feed though. :think:
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    A large portion of South America is already vegeterian, IE - not beef eaters, but to them, fish & chicken is OK. So there are flaws already in this argument.

    Secondly, if the world suddenly became vegan, not only would Monsanto be thrilled, but we would run out of world food supplies a lot quicker.

    EVERYTHING, in moderation.
     
  7. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    But a chicken's not a vegetable ....
     
  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I understand that, you need to explain that to everyone in central and south America.
     
  9. philbert

    philbert Junior Member

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    I think that a vegetarian/vegan could easily find plenty of science to support a point of view that they already subscribe to. I think an omnivore could do the same. We see the same thing with the climate change debate.

    I switched to a paleo diet a little while back, and the only study that interests me has a sample size of me, and the results so far indicate that this human definately operates better with more meat, a lot more fresh vegies, and almost no starch/grain.

    So long as the government doesn't start taxing the things I eat because a vegetarian lobby group talked them into doing so, then I am happy for everyone to eat whatever diet works best for them.
     
  10. Nickolas

    Nickolas Junior Member

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    “You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car.” Harvey Diamond
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I want a new car. Obviously the rabbit is a long, slow stew and the baby is fed the broth. Mind you I'd like to see a baby manage to eat a whole apple by itself. Diamond should pull the other one.

    Traditional cultures and baby food: https://www.westonaprice.org/childr...-exceptionally-healthy-babies-and-parents-too

    Fallon and Enig on feeding babies: https://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/feeding-babies

    What to feed babies by age: https://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/nourishing-a-growing-baby
     
  12. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    If they baby doesn't have teeth yet then I would bet that it isn't eating either the rabbit OR the apple, but starts crying until it gets breast milk. Can I have a car too?
     
  13. NJNative

    NJNative Junior Member

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    For me, the physiological arguments are very compelling. We clearly are very related to primates, who are clearly primarily herbivores. Notice I said "primarily", and not exclusively. They eat lots of non-veggie things, like insects, eggs, and the occasional raw carcass, but their primary diet is fruits, leaves, shoots, and roots. Since we're supposed to be looking to nature for the answers, I look at this as a clue to what humans should primarily be eating.

    Personally, I am almost entirely vegetarian. I say almost because I do love me some fish whenever I can get it, especially shellfish and crustaceans. Besides their deliciousness, they're incredibly good for you. Show me a study that shows that eating fish is bad for you. I dare you. (That's a threat, if you do find such a study, prepare to face serious consequences! :) ) The reason I generally stay away from meat is for all of the reasons stated above and more. Generally, I don't want to be eating something so industrially processed, so unclean, and so inhumane. I'd love to eat the occasional grass-fed rotationally grazed burger if I had the money. It's on my list of things to pick up as a special treat at the local farmer's market. In terms of meats I hope to eventually grow myself, I will be focusing mainly on poultry, fish, and small mammals. Until then, I will stick to what is humanely and cheaply available. Does that mean I think no one should eat meat? Of course not, but I do understand and sympathize with those who feel it necessary to get the info on our physiology and the corruption of our food production system out to the public. Even if it doesn't change anyone's mind, I do feel it's necessary to get that info out there. Being a vegetarian had a huge impact on my way of life, not just in terms of how I ate, but in terms of how I viewed food and food production. I don't think we should shun those who are advocating for it. They may just come around to the middle road eventually, and in the mean time, they're doing a great service by helping to awaken people of our flawed systems.
     
  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Few words for ya

    Mercury, Dioxins, & DDT, PCB's...

    https://www.freep.com/article/20120...Before-you-eat-Michigan-fish-do-some-research

    With all the crap chemical ag puts on food that washes into the watersheds you actually think fish is safe? Marine fish too?

    Farm raised fish, are usually sicker then ocean caught, or wild fresh water fish, and ever those wild fish, whose numbers are dwindling incredibly fast are forced to live in the toxic spewage of our society.

    After the things I have seen in my life, I do not, and will not eat fish.
     
  15. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    But with some big differences, like the big brain.
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Its interesting that the "Big Eight" food allergens (cow's milk, egg, peanut, tree nuts, fish, shellfish, soy, and wheat) which are responsible for more than 90% of allergic food reactions,w/could be the major alternatives for a non red meat diet,evolution is cruel to red fleshed animals.
     
  17. NJNative

    NJNative Junior Member

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    That's definitely a constant concern for me, but from my admittedly limited understanding of the matter, shellfish, crustaceans, and other organisms that lie low on the food chain, are much less at risk for pollutant contamination, whereas the stuff higher up on the food chain, like swordfish, shark, etc, have much higher concentrations because of the rule of bio-accumulation. They eat a lot of the stuff with a little bit of contamination, and therefore become highly contaminated by the time they're ready to be eaten.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_fish

    I honestly stick to the stuff that's at the very bottom of that list, shrimp, clams, scallops, crabs, lobster, squid, etc, and only on very rare occasions, less than once a month. Every few months I'll have some salmon. This is all just so I can keep my required B12 and omega 3 levels, which I'm sure I get anyway from soy milk, flax seeds, and other veggie sources of these essential nutrients that I eat on a very regular basis, but I am concerned about my health, so I want to be sure I'm getting what I need.

    This is true, but do we really know where that brain size comes from? If you look at aquatic mammals, such as dolphins and whales, their brain size is comparable to human brain size, in relation to their body. So perhaps an increase in brain size is a result of an increase of a certain type of nutrient that is exclusive to aquatic animals. I'm not sure really, but my (and the author's) overall point remains, that our digestive anatomy is most similar to primates, who are primarily herbivores, with some occasional omnivorous tendencies. We're clearly not designed to be ruminants, since we don't have multiple stomachs to digest grasses multiple times to get their full nutrition, but we are much more equipped to deal with vegetative matter than we are raw flesh. Does this mean we shouldn't ever eat meat? I don't think so, and as you hint at in your comment, I think our overall holistic health, especially mental health, depends on the consumption of meat, but in extremely minute quantities, far less than most people eat now a days.
     
  18. Nickolas

    Nickolas Junior Member

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    It was only a few years ago that I would walk into a kitchen and I would smell a meat dish(like corn beef) cooking and my mouth would start watering and I would be in heaven when I ate it, but that was only because that was how I was programmed (i.e. brought up) as a kid, in only a few days after starting my meat free diet I found myself feeling repulsed at the thought of consuming meat and in a few weeks I found that I would feel physically ill at the thought of eating decaying corpses . now I can smell when someone is cooking meat from 4 times the distance I could when I enjoyed it and I have never come across a more off-putting smell.

    In the days when I use to eat meat if someone told me that one day I would evolve to enable my mind to control my body so that I would no longer be a slave to my programmed taste buds and be a Vegetarian I would look upon them with utter disbelief!
     
  19. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I think there's pretty good evidence brain size in humans correlates with eating meat, along with other factors, but it's impossible to know exactly what factors influenced human brain size. I was going to post a bunch of links to anthropological articles about human evolution and meat eating, but decided not to since anyone can research this on their own. These articles discuss the differences between human anatomy and physiology and that of other great apes. We can't just look at our closest relatives and assume we evolved to have the same diet as they do when our physiology and anatomy is significantly different.

    I think people should find the diet which works best for them. Your diet with tiny amounts of meat might work well for you but be completely inappropriate for someone else with a different metabolism and way of life. I don't think we can dictate one diet for all people in all climates. In some parts of the world an appropriate permaculture diet might include large amounts of meat because that is what can be raised on the land most appropriately.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I didn't realize you are not eating predator fish, you are eating lower on the food chain like I do, thus saving ourselves from the mercury, however, as my Marine Biology teacher taught us, this does not excuse the PCB's and Dioxins from getting inside of us, which is why eating these things in moderation is best. Funny how it always comes down to that, doing things in moderation.
     

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