Having a problem, need cartography advice.

Discussion in 'Members' Systems' started by Pakanohida, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I am having a serious problem mapping & I do not find Google Maps, or my local council office to be of much help. Nor can I afford to have a survey team come in since it costs $500+ :(

    Is it better to just do it freehand and hope things line up later on? :think:

    How do I handle dealing with drops in elevation? My property has a huge issue with that with the house area being 180' (60m) above sea level, and the bottom of the property being at river level that leads to the ocean.

    Some things I can handle with mapping. Such as I recently did a small mapping of an attached woodshed that is going to become an attached greenhouse, and then slowly 'cobbed' or a strawbale version of a greenhouse will be expanded in this general area.

    I should also point out I do not walk very well, and do not have help on the property.

    So, with all that said, please give me suggestions on how to accomplish this massive feat.

    :bow:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Question 1 - why do you need an accurate map?
     
  3. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    In order to maximize the use of this property and figure out what I will need over time, as opposed to what I want.

    In order to properly put in windbreaks, swales, water retention, water removal like in the storm I am currently having.

    In order to also properly design the edge effects, plants, etc. I could go on and on.. the question I pose is why shouldn't I have an accurate map?
     
  4. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Ludi, did you have me try this on the other forum, it looks familiar to me... ..then again it could be the surfing injuries. ;)

    I did find some interesting history about the property here. Seems my roads were made by a logging company that my neighbor up the hill used to work for.
     
  6. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    That's quite possible! I found the soil survey to be very helpful. If there isn't a topographical map in existence for your land unfortunately you'll have to make one which is a difficult process without the expensive apparatus of airplanes and/or professional surveyors. :( There's a lot about surveying in the Designers Manual, if I recall, but surveying requires being quite physically capable. I can't imagine what it would cost to hire someone to do a topographical survey for you - I guess somewhere in the tens of thousands of dollars, depending on the size of the land (my husband guesses between 5 and 10 thousand dollars for 20 acres, but that's just a guess)
     
  7. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Well, according to our government, the road leading to my house is a straight line. I now need to go outside and yell at the multicurved road to straighten out for the sake of the country because we can't afford new maps! In short, I will try and tinker with it again, but it isn't looking promising.

    There are some parts of the property that I would not be able to survey even on a good day, heck, I wouldn't want even trained pros to go down some of the steep areas here that lead down to the river. I am starting to think I should just map little areas, keep them all at the same scale, and then slowly put it all together on a wall or something.

    The areas unsafe to utilize effectively will just have to be a true wilderness zone.
     
  8. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I think that's a good plan.
     
  9. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think this is the way to go - you'll get to know your land intimately, which wouldn't happen if you got an aerial map for example. While it's OK to plan on paper, the reality of the land means that you ultimately have to make it work on the land. There are some things that you can't see on a map (like a great big rock just under the surface right where you want to put a corner post for a structure) that will adjust the plan.
     
  10. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It does help to have a good map, especially if you're on the side of a hill, which I am. But as the crow flies (like an aerial map) is very different on a hillside than as the foot walks. I have made what I call triangle maps that plot the distances on the side of a hill with one side of the triangle being the sloping ground (A), the second side is a tall pine tree at the bottom of A, (B), and the third side is where the high point of A intersects an imaginary level line to the pine tree, (C). It's kind of like doing an MRI of your property, looking sideways (across a hill) and gauging distances, rather than only using the bird's eye view.

    these triangles let you know the real distance, even though the distance of C (as the crow flies) might only be two-thirds of A if it's really steep. I have one steep slope on my place where A is 30 feet long and C is only 20 feet, so when I made a set of stairs there, using the 20-foot regular bird's-eye-view map measurement would have been a mistake. I would have been short 10 feet of stairs, plus with the triangle measurements I had the drop in elevation correct, which is part of the math of stairs.

    I stand at a distance and picture how many lengths of PVC pipe it would take to cover the distances. I think in terms of 10' pieces of PVC pipe. I lay out several lengths of 1/2" PVC pipe on a flat surface nearby to check back and forth what I'm eyeballing. Or if I've got access to the hillside I connect the PVC pipes down the length of it, then I can walk in any direction and still see how the PVC line relates to the slope and the other land markers, like fences, trees, boulders, structures, water tanks. All of the lines connecting those things can become triangles that can be noted on a hand-drawn map. I always do hand-drawn maps and judge things by this is half of that, or this is two thirds of that, or this is twice as high as that, so the general proportions can be written down.

    Have you seen Google Terrain?

    https://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/11/new-terrain-layer-in-google-maps.html
     
  11. barefootrim

    barefootrim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    yep, google terrain
     
  12. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Google terrain wasn't of much help to me, however, I spent a few hours with the satellite view to illustrate the problem of why I am seeking advice.

    [​IMG]

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Please note, in this latitude the sunny side is south, right where that forested gully is that I do not own. The cedars on that side that dwarf the sun in winter are over 50' tall, and only 60 years old, the alders have given way to them.
     
  13. Wolf_rt

    Wolf_rt Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2011
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That satellite view is quite good... I think if you drew say 5 curves (as though you are looking at the property in a sectioned side view) that approximate the curves of the land... assign some elevations (you said you know the height of your house?) then transfer these elevations on to a plan view, and draw in some contour lines... look at what you have done, and see if you can use your knowledge of the property to do some fine tuning..

    This isn't the clearest description, i will elaborate and do an example if you want (and if my posts ever actually appear)
     
  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I see where you are coming from Wolf, but there are so many small anomolies that I almost feel its a diservice to go by what I am find to be a glib interpetation of what my contour lines are. =/

    This is a video I made today showing another problem I am facing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZJn8bDsps

    Be careful of sound though, there are 2 loud whistles for my dog to illustrate path density.

    Also, keep in mind I am totally by myself when doing this stuff usually.
     
  15. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    wow, interesting video. Was that once a landscaped garden someone developed, or is all of that native? If you could clear everything you wanted to clear you could decide things more easily. DR Field Mower! :)

    Water in pipes also helps to show level. If you can link half-inch PVC pipes and trickle water (very low water pressure so that the pressure does not overcome the uphill slope) from one end to the other, moving one end until it won't come out, then back down to when it starts to trickle out, then link another, it will establish level for you.

    but I know from my place that the eye is fooled by lines other than the ground, and what you eye might swear is level, really isn't.
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    What I think happened is this land was held by a lumber company that came in about 60ish years ago (by size of cedars) and benched the property so they could get to the largest trees. They then sold the property which changed several hands before getting to me.

    On the one hand I have a large amount of earthworks already done, on the other... I can barely make it across the property in some areas. Very difficult for Master Designing.
     
  17. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Very honestly today, I am frustrated.

    I feel like I could whip out a Master Design for some FLAT property with my eyes crossed behind my head, but terracing & mapping solo... ..well lets just say I suddenly understand head banging music.

    The hardest part of this is doing the mapping solo. I can't afford surveyors, Google is no help, mapping sources online are no help, they are all too glib with 20' intervals, and wrong. Library has no help for me as well, same with city hall.
     
  18. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,925
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Can you shade out everything that you can't get to, call it zone 5 and therefore feel that you have it under control?
     
  19. annette

    annette Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Hey Pak,

    Just had a thought. Do you have a university near you at all? If so you could contact the department teaching surveying and offer your property as a training site for the students.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,984
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Wouldn't each expansion into that zone then warrant a new master design & its approval*?


    Annette - Maybe, I will explore that avenue and possibly include Boy Scouts.


    * - PRI Master Design qualification
     

Share This Page

-->