The day it all comes tumbling down

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by insipidtoast, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Fatal flaws and resilience...takes me back to this video posted recently on the PRI Home page - Link.

    Maybe all that can be done is increase the periods of resiliency and collapse is always inevitable in the larger scale i.e. hundreds to thousands of years. One example they use is a devastating fire, and nature always recovers from that. And has the ability to form better, or worse, systems after that collapse based on external factors, permaculture being that external factor in our example.
     
  2. CRTreeDude

    CRTreeDude Junior Member

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    In all honesty, I probably am not the person to be able to see a "fatal flaw" in permaculture. Perhaps being too complicated for the average person to grasp quickly? Permaculture itself is a simple idea, stop fighting nature, you are going to lose. But, just like software developers, we immediately want to talk nuts and bolts, guilds, swales, humus, etc.

    But, to be accepted widely, perhaps there needs to be a Permaculture for Dummies book? I would also think that perhaps, if not already available, a guild in a box, for a home owner to try out. For the average person, who only buys seeds from Burpee, finding some of the plants mentioned is a show stopper.

    I try to put myself in the shoes of my father who is a very successful gardener (our family had 300 acres of vegetable farms when he was young) who is now getting too old to work so hard. He still loves growing things, but can't spend 2 hours a day doing it. What could I send him, so that he would start doing this? He has had to reduce his "garden" from well over an acre, to just a few rows, I know he would love to turn his 5 acres into a garden, if he could.

    Permaculture to me isn't a system, but a state of mind. But humans, especially westerners, have a way of wanting to make everything a system. Instead of doing something, then sitting back and observing, perhaps the tendency will become that those who are designers need to finish their design, and of course, convince the person paying that it is finished, when in reality, the whole point is that it is NEVER finished. The caretaker, which will normally be the owner of the property, needs to grasp the basic concepts of permaculture, and then move forward as the system evolves - forever.

    Pardon me if I am saying something obvious, or doesn't make sense, I am some ways am a newbie to formal permaculture, though we have been working with nature for about ten years down here with some pretty good results.
     
  3. CRTreeDude

    CRTreeDude Junior Member

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    I think what you are saying here is on track, but I think there is a basic underlining concept. Systems that run out of control do so often due to arrogance. I remember about 10 years ago posting on a few forums that if we didn't get our house in order in the USA we were going to be in a heap of trouble. It seemed obvious to me that you couldn't have housing increasing in value so rapidly forever, pretty soon, no one could afford a home! Also, a trade imbalance can't continue forever (notice people still don't talk much about that), you are siphoning off the wealth of the nation. Well, I was called unpatriotic for even implying that the USA might have a flaw. Now of course on those sites it is considered some grand conspiracy, not just a natural outcome of an out of control systems.

    When someone discovers a better way, they need to also understand that the best of all possible things is that someone else will find your flaws. The basic ideas of the USA in the constitution and Declaration of Independence were incredible, especially for their time. What is holding things back till it falls off the cliff is thinking it is heresy to think that perhaps a nation of 300 million and is a super power has different needs and requirements than an ex-colony of 3 million.

    I guess a question I have is, what is the largest permaculture system to date? Does anyone know? The reason I ask is we have plantations that are, by design, moving to natural forest, but maintained. We are using the plantation phase as the nursery for the permanent rainforest. In total, we have 350 hectares (roughly), or just under 900 acres. It isn't completely contiguous(I wish!) But there are 3 areas of about 100 hectares each, and then a smaller section we live on. The theory of permaculture is very applicable to what we are doing, with a light hand. (after all, nature works with you when you are so big if you let her) Just curious about anyone who knows of a large system - besides nature herself.
     
  4. Yukkuri_Kame

    Yukkuri_Kame Junior Member

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    Good posts. More good food for thought.

    As far as resilient, stable systems, I'm sure most of us have seen these two, which apparently haven't yet crashed from fatal flaws...

    [video=youtube;hftgWcD-1Nw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hftgWcD-1Nw[/video]

    [video=youtube;-5ZgzwoQ-ao]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZgzwoQ-ao&feature=relmfu[/video]

    TreeDude, awesome you are working on that scale. I'm still just piddling in the backyard, ha, ha!

    As far as large scale systems, Gunter Pauli has supposedly regenerated 8,000 hectares in Brazil. They are now going after 100,000 hectares, not sure how far along the project is now. About 6 minutes into this video:

    [video=youtube;piH8lIZDwLQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piH8lIZDwLQ[/video]
     
  5. CRTreeDude

    CRTreeDude Junior Member

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    Cool, thanks for posting those. One of my focuses now is cacao because if grown monocrop it has serious problems with disease, fungus, etc but isolated, it is just fine. Also, it really wants shade to do well. I am thinking of lining all the inside roads with a mix of cacao and perhaps bananas, plantains, etc. We have to have more than 20 kilometers of internal roads, so that would be 20,000 meters / 4 = 5,000 plants.

    Pretty nice to have the additional harvest of cacao, bananas, papaya, plantains, etc. in land that normally you can't do much with. Sure makes things prettier too. The wildlife will be pleased as well.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    And here I am focusing on Apples for tons of reasons. In fact, I just read that "blight" is from 1 and only 1 bacteria. Bacteria, like from a prairie... ..well that seems to me that if an apple tree gets blight, it's because there isn't enough fungal growth. It seems to me a straight forward diagnosis, but I wonder if this little story helps with cacao?
     
  7. annette

    annette Junior Member

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  8. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Ever see a run on a bank other then in the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life"? It's a very scary thing when a bank can't pay everyone out.
     
  9. CRTreeDude

    CRTreeDude Junior Member

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    I had a heck of a time controlling a fungus on a certain seedling - eventually it came down to using paper pots, instead of plastic. Fungus can be incredibly difficult to control, until you figure out what its requirements are, and then it is super easy to get rid of.

    The problems with cacao go away if you use them as understory, instead of plantation - which is what permaculture suggests.
     
  10. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Hi Pak

    No never seen a real run on a bank. The one in Mary Poppins, where the little boy demands his tuppence back, was scary enough.
     
  11. Yukkuri_Kame

    Yukkuri_Kame Junior Member

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    Regarding runs on banks, Greenspan flat out said the FED and FDIC could guarantee deposits - but not purchasing power.
     
  12. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Yeah which probably means the printing presses are going to go overtime. Have your wheelbarrows ready.
     
  13. annette

    annette Junior Member

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  14. MelMel8318

    MelMel8318 Junior Member

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    So now we are awaiting Obama's signature on the NDAA bill. What the Patriot Act failed to accomplish in eliminating civil liberties, this bill will accomplish. Snuck in under the guise of our National Defense bill that NO ONE will vote against for fear of political suicide is the ability to lock ANYONE in the world up without trial, for an indefinate period of time, under military custody if they are suspected of being associated with any terrorist, terroroist group or organization.

    There is no definition that determines why one would be suspect....:devil:

    In other words, terrorism is an excuse to lock up anyone, anywhere, for any reason. BTW, it doesn't just effect Americans, or persons in the states. It is ANYONE, ANYWHERE, for ANY REASON, by the military, without trial. The excuse? Terrorism.

    This really stinks of the Château d'If!
     
  15. annette

    annette Junior Member

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    Yes i was reading about this. Even went to the trouble of looking up the Bill to see what it said. Unfortunately the proposed bill is put on the web in a fashion where you have to individually click on each section and it is a very large Bill.

    I had a sneaking suspicion that it may be passed because of what may be coming down the track. With the occupy movement causing some troubles for authorities, if the s#$t really does hit the fan, there may be revolution in the streets and it would be pretty handy to lock up "troublemakers" to keep control. Interesting to see what comes out of Europe this week. Smacks of fascism but I could be wrong as I haven't read the Bill, just reports about it.

    Funny thing is all the so called experts keep talking about confidence etc. It is really about too much debt. If the plan of France and Germany goes through many countries will be giving up their sovereignty with power in Europe completely centralised. The Euro was a good idea at the time, but not backed up with fiscal scrutiny. They should just let those in deep trouble default, go back to their own currency and devalue their way out of it. But that would mean Germany and France would have to contend with a rising currency making their exports dearer. It is in their interests to keep the Euro together.

    Most politicians are in the pocket of elites and campaign contributors, in Europe, the US and to a certain extent here in Australia. They will do anything to keep themselves in power and line their own pockets. In the end all us little people pay for it.
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    The one he promises to veto? The one the ACLU is already all over? The same NDAA that still has to pass congress? Don't get your hopes up, but if it does pass, head to the hills.
     
  17. MelMel8318

    MelMel8318 Junior Member

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    That be the one. If he does veto, it will be the first time in history this bill gets veto'd. I did look it up and read it. Nestled in between Navy garbage policy and research funding, there is a small section referring to this. If I wasn't looking for it, I would have missed it.
     
  18. Ludi

    Ludi Junior Member

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    I will be extremely surprised if Obama vetoes the bill. Apparently the reason it is disliked by the administration is not because it is unconstitutional, but because it does not give the president enough power.

    Exactly what is meant by "head to the hills" ? No, seriously, I wonder what that actually means. What should people actually do?
     
  19. purecajn

    purecajn Junior Member

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    It's a shame that the bill has even gotten this far. As of late the U.S. seems to be causing more headachs for other countries. It makes me wonder if the gov. is trying to get the fight brought too the States so more liberties can be taken from Its citizens with justification.
     
  20. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I am unsure, but its the same powers Hitler got and I am very very aware of what occurred in WW2 with it due to my high school having a Holocaust Education Center in it.

    I will say this, when George Bush Jr. stole the election illegally in Florida, a lot of professors @ Berkeley University with tenure quit, and fled to Canada and Europe; and that's what I meant by head to the hills.
     

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