Making cement paving stones

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by sun burn, Jan 8, 2011.

  1. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    I've discovered sources of expansion joints. I am so glad you mentioned them as I can now see how important they are. I took pictures of a job that didn't have any and its all cracked up. see here... I haven't finished posting all my paving stone pics yet but have a look at what's up now anyhow.

    And if anyone else is interested in this topic, look for the thread about lime. Don't know what its called but i am now chasing down all about lime and I am really excited...! I will explain in more detail on my own members thread here... https://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?7802-Latitude-14-Eastern-Australia/page5

    https://www.photoblog.com/shangrila...lants-and-other-things-from-port-douglas.html
    https://www.photoblog.com/shangrila

    Don! Don! where's the damn thread? lol
     
  2. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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  3. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Hi Gobug, nice to see your join this forum. Can i please ask you to introduce yourself now to the whole forum by using the intro branch. You could even copy and paste most of your post if you didn't feel like rewriting. It helps people get a sense of you and therefore may make their responses around the forum more useful too.

    With regard to the tiles you've made, a four inch paver is nothing like the project i am working on. I don't think thin pavers are suitable for my project as the length and breadth ratio is very great so i think i need the thickness. I don't think there could be much advantage in using reinforcing to make a thinner paver. I mean is there a cost saving if you have to go and buy steel? Is it really a material saving at all when you think about hte inclusion of steel.

    now for just a threadjack about concrete v ferrocement, the same argument that i present re materials savings might apply in the concrete v ferrocement debate. However, i grant that there may be other benefits of FC over concrete which is why i am opting to use it in my house for example, it would be easier for me to work with ferrocement than concrete and there should be a cost saving but not in the essential materials. Also i note that using ferrocment probably won't use any less cement. Since the ratio of sand to cement is 1:1 as opposed to 3:1 for concrete. I suspect that the amount of cement in a ferrocement building will be the same as in a concrete building. But lets not forget about the steel and all that that means. For all that, ferrocement still looks like it might be the best material for me to build my house with. I am however, going to look more into using bamboo instead of steal. I know its been done in indonesia but here i don't have a wide choice of bamboos to choose from and so what i can access may not be suitable at all for my house. But i will find out.
     
  4. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    For outdoor pavers your minimum thickness is 40mm. For long skinny ones you will definitely need proper steel reo. For various sizes make sure they are proportional to each other so that they will make a coherent pattern. A whole bunch of odd sizes will not work....think about it.....

    3:2:1 is the mix and don't vary it. Use plasticiser. Screw the formwork together to facilitate ease of removal. You won't need a release agent. Don't use a sloppy mix cos it will be weak. Stiff concrete makes for strong pavers. Fool around with finishing techniques and colouring agents and different aggregates if you want to expose them.

    Stick to the above and a great and glorious future is assured.

    ....no further correspondence will be entered into. Just do it. I'd insert a big happy smiley thing here, but I dunno how to.
     
  5. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    despite no further correspondence note, i noticed that rosco didn't look at the image. I appreciate that he knows his stuff but this is a bit different.
     
  6. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    I lied about the no further correspondence. I'm a gasbag at heart.

    You are right I didn't see the link and now I've seen it, I would humbly suggest you will face a few probs to do it.

    The infill would need to be concrete, not grout (or mortar) because of the width and depth of the infill. Mortar (or grout) at those dimensions will crack and eventually dislodge. Should you choose loose gravel (the drainage and possibly the aesthetic aspect is good) it will travel from it's appointed place and be annoying underfoot.

    I'm a professional landscaper and been involved in some fuggin disasters over the years so....you know....I'm a kinda big deal and my library smells of leather and rich mahogany.
     
  7. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Gathering all my own humility together before your esteemed Honour, thank you for replying again.

    I'm glad you've taken the invitation to cast your experienced gaze at the link. I couldn't find it again myself and wondered if i'd made it up. But evidently not.

    Ok so i should put concrete. What a shame. What do you say to the idea of crusher dust that has been wet down a little bit? That's one idea I've been considering of late. I'd already decided against mortar but for different reasons. Maybe if i do use concrete, i could press some of that black aggregate gravel into the concrete -I'm trying for a dark colour but i am not too keen on using the concrete colour, though I could and i also like the idea of a textural contrast. I"ll probably have to try a few things out before I settle on the final solution. I don't want this to look awful given the source of the idea and effort that I will have to put into it.

    Its funny but for a big deal, you don't really employ the appropriate tone so although I am willing to believe that you are a Big Deal, its sorta hard, your Magnificence, with Respect.

    One more little question, if I may...

    I'm just digging the trenches at the moment and I am doubtful of my father's answer to this question, so I'd like a second opinion. When i do the border concrete - which i have now decided to do using some pieces of small concrete that i found recently and then covering it all with wet concrete which will save on materials and hopefully be just as good - do i need to use formwork to hold the sides of the concrete up. My father says I don't need formwork, my trowel should do the job of shaping it quite well enough. So what would be the best way?

    I"ve just noticed that all my links have moved themselves about and don't show the inspiration for htis project so here's a better link.

    https://www.nationalgalleries.org/media_collection/6/GMA 2196.jpg
     
  8. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    I see my considerable charm and obviously rugged good looks has you back ganting helplessly for more so here we goes....

    Exposed agg(regate) in your concrete infill could be an option, but to get a pleasing result requires test pieces and patience. With any kind of masonry the true colour only reveals itself over time. Combine that with weathering and the colonising of the surfaces with moulds, fungus, mosses and bacteria and you wind up with a vastly different product than what you started out with.

    Colouring concrete with pigments can, more often than not, lead you to an awful result and I prefer not to do it....but then again, I do do it and sometimes it's orright. The selection of your cement (Brighton White or General Purpose), sand and agg that make up the mix will determine the final look. Given that it's only exposed to foot traffic means you can get away with the inclusion of an odd assortment of sand and agg not normally used in structural concrete.

    Crusher dust in the negative shapes does give you texture. It wouldn't give you any beneficial drainage though. You will still get some washing out on the pavers after a downpour and scuffing out by traffic etc and that's not flash. You should be laying a base of compacted crushed rock before you begin mortaring the pavers in too.

    Formwork is probably the go. At least the thickness will be true across all the shapes and that accounts for a lot less laying pain. Getting a consistant, workable slump is possible too, but after reading a few of your posts.....experience counts for volumes here. You got to muck around with the stuff for a bit. Jobs done by the home enthusiast can be hit and miss. It all comes down to experience, but don't let me put you off. If you have a clear result in mind and the application to do test pieces, you will get there....or close to it.

    How big an area you looking at? Expansion joints would be unnecessary if it is shorter than 6 m.

    ...hate to say it, but the end result you will get will not have much of a relationship to that Carl Andreish floor piece of minimalist nonsense that inspired it. It's impact relies on the individual pieces being 3D. You will have gone to a lot of trouble to arrive at a 2D pattern. Mind you - I love the pattern. If you aggressively 'point' the mortar/concrete infill then you will achieve some 3d ness, but.....I dunno if it will make you happy.

    Yours in Splendidity
    Rosco
    :)
     
  9. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Carl Andreish nonsense! Have you no respect? Ok, i am not an especial fan of him myself but i do like Richard Long who's work this is. Yes I see what you mean by the 3Dish, that's why i thought i would go dark in the infill and light on the stones and try not to make it too flush with the stone surface. Its also why i think the black agg gravel finish will be great in the gaps if i can get a smooth finish on the stones themselves.

    I'm not to sure what the inference is here. Obviously i have no experience with this but that's why i am in no hurry.

    Yes i know the finished piece won't be the same as the original. I am not going for that but i do think the actual pattern is the key thing here. So I think it will look great.

    The area is 5m x 3.5 approximately. Someone somewhere suggested expansion joints in the concrete every metre. I think i will do it for the boundary at least.

    I know there will be no in-floor drainage if i use concrete except if build in little tubes which i think is a good idea and worth trying. Into that gaps areas that is.

    In a book i've got Marking Garden Floors which i quite like, there is an example of a floor which uses the same colour stone and is crazy paved and uses a darker mortar/whatever it is. Its pretty similar to what i am planning except for the shape of the stones. Its quite helpful to see that. Its on page 98 if you happen to have a copy. Its interesting to see this because the gaps are large here too and they used gravel infill i note.

    Anyhow, your Charming Rugged Highness, thanks for your expertness once again.
     
  10. rosco

    rosco Junior Member

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    Googled Richard Long. Kinda like Andy Goldsworthy who does some extraordinarily delicate stuff and I kinda liked him way back when, but now it all leaves me terribly cold. They're just graphic designers writ large with a tedious cosmic bent and their lame marketing ploy to generate critical fizz is just sooooo eighties.....there....I've said it! .... but your plan does have a lot of promise.


    To continue the Gospel -

    1. You will not need any expansion joints. Yay Verily.

    2. Light on the pavers is good. Use sandy coloured washed sand and Brighton White cement. You may find a greenish tint coming through from the Brighton White though. I'm making up test pieces for my place and have been mixing 50/50 reddish/orange brickies sand (higher clay content) with washed sand to counteract this. Also wanted a light bright pinkish look and I'm getting it. Brighton White is also twice as much as GP cement.....give the GP a go for a greyer result.

    3. Finishing technique for the pavers has massive variables involved. Timing is critical for the look of the finished result. As the concrete 'puts up' or starts going off - Steel, wood, magnesium floats, sprinkles of cement and stone dust as you work it up.....the critical mass of all this gives you a friggin massive palette. On the other hand, just a basic technique may be all you require. Edges can be fiddly and over working the surface can be fatal.

    4a. Put a slight fall on the job (10mm) towards where you want it to drain to. Holes in the surface that are not connected to a drain will fail. Verily tis the truth of which I speak here My Child.

    4b. The exposed black agg on the infill may require a misting of detergent. This will retard the dying time of the surface. After it's put up (big time variable here) you can wash the surface to expose the agg. I've done it without the detergent after about one hour. Cold, grey days need longer time. Seen it done it in cold damp conditions twelve hours later with the judicious use of a soft brush too. The detergent idea is used by some.

    5. Get friendly with an old Italian. Any old one will do.



    You May Now Kiss the Ring. :angel:
     
  11. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Well richard long was doing it in the 60s.


    I'm rather distracted by a snake at the moment who wants to eat my ducks but i'll try to formulate a reply...What about sugar syrup instead of detergent. A couple of people have told me about that for exposing the aggregate. I've seen it done by someone who didn't do it properly and it still wasn't bad. They only sprinkled sugar on it instead of syrup.

    Thanks for telling me about the overworking. I have understood that you have to work it a bit to get the cream up so i'd probably end up overdoing it. Now i know i have to manage it. I want a smooth finish on the stones. I like the way when you use gray concrete how it can be almost white from bringing the cream to the top... on the other hand. gotta go check on the snake...no time for kissing at the moment.
     
  12. SueUSA

    SueUSA Junior Member

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    This is a bit of an 'old' post, but I'm going to throw in some suggestions anyway.

    First, and most important: It's too big of a job for someone who has never worked with concrete before. You would be better off beginning with some small projects and start working on the concrete learning curve. A bad job or a partly-finished job of concrete is VERY discouraging, and a big one is awful. I bury my failures under the bottoms of the gates so the dogs don't dig out. Sometimes I have to use a sledge hammer to make them small enough to fit.

    Next... are you really attempting to make a bunch of odd-sized pieces as shown in the photo? As has been said above, they need to be measured, designed and made carefully so they all fit together, and that is VERY tricky to do. REALLY!

    Rosco has offered you some very good advice, and I hope you take it.

    Suggestion: If you insist on doing this project, make and cure all the individual pieces first, forget about preparing the site. Concrete does not DRY, it CURES, and curing takes an absolute minimum of 28 days. The more moist you can keep it after it sets up, the stronger it will be. Immersion in water is perfect; second-best is covering with plastic and keeping it pieces damp/wet. After they have set (but before they harden too much), you will have to clean off/smooth all twelve edges on all of the pieces so they don't have hard, ugly little ridged edges.

    Then lay out all your finished pieces in a flat area and see if they all fit together properly. By now, several months have probably passed.

    Once they are all finished and fit together nicely, THEN you can prepare the actual site... IF no freezing temps are due before you think you will be finished, and then some. Freezing temps are often overlooked by commercial concrete companies who pour slabs and driveways, but freezing can damage what you are doing.

    Personally, I wouldn't touch this project with a long stick, because I would end up as a babbling, incoherent, drooling maniac locked into what used to be referred to as insane asylums (which is probably no longer politically correct).

    Sue
     
  13. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    Hi Sue, you are welcome to add your two cents worth any time. And yes i might end up some sort of crazy with this too. However, my most successful defence mechanism throughout my life (the thing that keeps me out of the asylum) has been avoidance. This means I haven't done much yet. But I am trying to push myself through this.

    Certainly i am leaving the trickier parts till last for some reason - ie the blocks. Though in fact now that I think i know how to make the stones, they seem to be the easiest part. I've dug the boundary trench and am in the process of ordering the crusher dust (which i am going to use as the base instead of alternatives as its good for all my small landscaping projects and will save me lots of money i think). But now its raining too much to do any concreting i think.

    I'm not really bothered by the pavers not fitting close together as the design has it that they won't be a snug fit. It doesn't matter that they are not properly cured either. I think. As i am going away for two months, i could leave the pavers out of the area and just let the family use it with the compacted crusher dust.


    Yes i know its a good idea to have a small project first. I've got a few things around here to do. The smallest one i was going to do was just to make some stones to rim my pond.

    I think i am basically following most of rosco's advice. Was there something particularly you thought I should do?

    Probably the worst part of this project is that i am making it over the roots of a fig tree. For this reason, i am a bit reluctant to concrete the pavers in . I don't want them breaking because of the roots. But I will do it if turns out to be the best thing.

    We never get freezing temperatures here. Its simply unheard of. This is the tropics.
     
  14. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    It was good to read rosco's tips again actually. So thanks for the reminder.
     
  15. SueUSA

    SueUSA Junior Member

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    "This is the tropics."

    :think: Sorry, but I have a mental block about the concept of places that don't freeze -- it's a totally foreign idea.

    Fig tree roots... The sand base/grout does seem like a better idea, in that case. Never underestimate the power of roots.

    Sue
     
  16. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    lol i understand.

    I think i am asking for trouble with my fig tree roots. But i can't leave trouble alone. What i intend to do with my roots is this. What do you think.

    I am not going to chop out most of them. Just the small ones. I figure if i leave them alone as much as possible the tree wo'nt fall over in a storm and b) there will be less need for the tree to grow new ones that cause trouble for my paving. I don't think there are too many feeder roots where I am making my paving. At least i hope this is hte case but i think the roots are important for holding the tree down. I dont mind too much if they upset my concrete boundary a little. But i wouldn't like them to bust my pretty pavers.
     
  17. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I have trouble getting my head around the concept of ground that freezes for a part of the year.... Fancy not being able to grow stuff in your backyard 365 days of the year!
    Each to their own!
     
  18. SueUSA

    SueUSA Junior Member

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    Sun Burn, since figs have such shallow root systems, I wonder if the pavers and sand might actually prove to be a benefit? They would shade the soil just like mulch, yet let air in. It would be nice to know how this works out!

    Eco: 'Fancy not being able to grow stuff in your backyard 365 days of the year!' HA! We have 120-140 days, MAX! Also practically no rain during the growing season, and very cool at each end.

    Sue
     
  19. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    You know Sue there's a block of land for sale beside me. You could always emigrate and get that extra 200+ days happening!
     
  20. nikes

    nikes New Member

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    i agree with "milifestyle" one of my friend also use the same ratio...
    __________
    natural stone
     

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