Removing willow for water

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Michaelangelica, Dec 2, 2010.

  1. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    Holmgren is where academic meets activist!

    Holistic, participatory research documented the way David has, is legitamate enough research for some folks who are active in the landscape. Seemingly, its easier to go at it within the community, with like minded individuals.

    Lead by example!
     
  2. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    You should be able to rrow coffee there Markos

    There is a fine Toona australis in your bot garden ,Red ceder is an excellant support species for coffee!
    fear of weeds is quite pervasive ;Last week i was speaking with 2 farmers who s land under current mgt couldnt grow a blackberry (overgrazing)yet they still fear invasion
    Around here black berries dont seem to invade wilderness; just disturbed areras
    Should i kill the female honey locust whose sap supports the sugar gliders over winter?

    Matto ;one of the things with most legumes is they have a variable proportion of hard seeds. these can be selected for and against nothing remains the same
    The IRA (idiginous revegitation activists) are prone to bending the truth
     
  3. Raymondo

    Raymondo Junior Member

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    Got nothing against weeds personally. I even like some of them. Seems to me the main 'problem' with them is that they do better than some other plants, hence their weediness. Well, plenty of examples around these days of putting them to good use in classic permie style. However, there would seem to be a problem with deciduous trees, which includes the willow, and Australian waterways, highlighted by fresh water ecologists at the local university. They pointed out that leaf fall into waterways is handled by a range of creatures that live in the waterways and that, in Australia, these creatures evolved with small but fairly constant leaf fall throughout the year. When large numbers of deciduous trees are planted along a waterway the autumn leaf fall overwhelms these creatures and eventually wipes out a good number of them. The water quickly becomes anoxic at depth. The ecology is completely out of whack in such waterways and water quality suffers accordingly. Problems are propagated downstream as the poor quality water continues on its way.
    Our town council now has a policy of not planting any deciduous trees near the creek that runs through town. The urban river care group has leave to remove willows and other deciduous trees growing along the creek and replace them with eucalypts, casuarinas and other native species. The university has done a lot of stream health studies both before and after and all measures show improvement, particularly oxygen levels. There are still some areas where deciduous trees will remain but it is hoped that over time with the removal of the deciduous trees elsewhere that those left will have minimal impact.
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    As the permaculture maxim goes ... it depends!

    What was the health of the waterway like before the willows went in? This is the vital link in the observational chain of science that often gets overlooked. More often than not, willows were planted in order to reduce stream bank erosion only after the waterways had their native riparian vegetation grazed and trampled to non existence, and the actual waterway resembled a stinking cesspool of fermenting livestock piss and shit. Rarely (I've yet to see an example) was it the case that riparian zones were in 'pristine', pre-1750 extant condition prior to willows going in:

    [​IMG]

    More than likely, they were in a heavily degraded condition:

    [​IMG]

    No value in trying to compare apples with oranges. Willow management is a 'complex' science. One size does not fit all. Hence the reason why we should always look to the very latest in scientific review to further our knowledge and ultimately, our practice. Inasmuch, the following is a very good example (p. iii):

    A key finding of this review is that willow management is complex and context-dependent. The expected ecological benefits as well as potential risks are likely highly dependent on stream size, geomorphology, hydrology, catchment land use and associated stressors, and the extent of willow growth and the taxa involved. Setting management goals tempered by the spatial and temporal limitations to recovery will guide the cost-benefit analysis of intended operations and will be crucial to successful rehabilitation projects. Given the potential ecological risks and negative consequences that are involved with willow removal, this report provides management recommendations for when not to remove willows and for selecting streams where rehabilitation efforts are likely to be most efficient.

    In other words, and to use another permaculture maxim: The actual nature of the site will always determine the actual nature of the intervention.

    Text source: Wagenhoff & Young (2013) Effects of Willow Removal on Australian and New Zealand Stream Ecosystems - A Literature review of the potential risks and benefits

    Image source: DEPI (2013) What is Native Vegetation?
     
  5. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    No one came across the idea of spiling?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Raymondo

    Raymondo Junior Member

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    Agreed. However, the ability or lack thereof of Australian waterways to handle deciduous leaf fall remains. I'm just suggesting that it's something to take into consideration when planting in riparian zones in this country.
     
  7. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Suggestion noted, thanks.
     
  8. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Spring Creek (circa 1860):

    [​IMG]

    Source: State Library of Victoria

    Spring Creek (circa 1864):

    [​IMG]

    Source: National Library of Australia

    Spring Creek (circa 1908):

    [​IMG]

    Source: State Library of Victoria

    Spring Creek (2005 PDC):

    [​IMG]

    Source: Holmgren Design

    Where David is standing, in the final shot, is on about 3-metres (from memory) of reclaimed creek bed courtesy of Willow root matting and natural siltation processes. It only took about 10-years of alluvial mining to cut Spring Creek from its pre-1750 extent down to bedrock. It's taken the Willows and Poplars 150-years to put it back. Without which, I suggest, it would have taken 'native' plants (predominantly E. viminalis) 1,500-years.
     
  9. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    As i said the IRA are prone to bending the truth (i know many of the truth benders at the university and some embeded in CMA,landcare ect)
    Twood be wonderfull to see more science
    I recon incised channels represent one of our greatest problems/recources in the northern tablelands
    NB The northern tablelands is a heavily industrialized landscape,farmers here consider themselves to be a bit more clever than average because of their links to the UNE,im not so sure!
     
  10. Raymondo

    Raymondo Junior Member

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    I don't consider myself part of your IRA Andrew, nor do I believe that the fresh water ecologists I know at UNE bend the truth, but that's just my opinion. I cannot say it is truth. I am a native plant enthusiast and would always look first to native species if I wanted to plant for some land management purpose but if an exotic species presented itself that would do the job faster and with minimal unwanted side effects I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
    As far as the creek through town goes, we can never know what it was like before European settlement. All the urban river care group can do is try to improve its health. It's in not too bad shape when it enters the town precincts because we are close to its headwaters but it deteriorates rapidly as it traverses the town so it would be good if we could get it to a point where where it was at least the same on leaving as when it enters.
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Raymondo, as past-inaugural president of our sub-bioregional Landcare group, I hear what you are saying. Net community (both human and non-human) benefit is what we are all after, in the quickest, most scientific and efficient manner possible. This, I think, is why we are all (or at least most of us) here at the PRI Forum. It is admirable that you care for your local creek. And I, for one, applaud the efforts of you and your local Landcare group in trying to manage it to a better state of health. However, I would be very careful about suggesting we 'can never know' anything about our pre-1750 extant landscapes. You might be surprised to learn that the Aboriginal people local to your area know a great deal about what the place was like prior to the invasion. I wonder of you have asked them?

    The reason I did not include a pre-1750 extant image in the Spring Creek montage, is not because we don't have one, but because the 'image' we do have is one that is passed from one imagination to the other, orally. And I don't have permission of the person who gave it to me to pass it on. Concerning Spring Creek, we also know where the pre-1750 stream bed was because we have geologically 'read' the landscape. The cut through the valley, caused by the mid C19 mining activity, left a very undeniable time-scale stratum - it can be read like a textbook. We also know that E. viminalis were the dominant species, their fossilised pollens are still present deep in the undisturbed material. We also know how long it took for the Willows and the natural siltation process to reclaim the bed. David found rubbish (potato chip packets I think it was, from memory) with used by dates approximately 15-years prior at around 30-cm below the new 'natural' because of a fresh-flood cut. If 15-years X 10 = 150-years, then 30-cm X 10 = 3-metres (considering a mean average regime of flood/drought/Willow growth/siltation).

    Anyway, I digress. Keep up the good work, everyone, and try to remember that most people are trying to do the right thing, most of the time - even we 'university' types ;).
     
  12. matto

    matto Junior Member

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    G'day Raymondo,

    Citing Dr. Wilsons paper,

    There may be a difference in the leaf types that may increase aoxic water around willow? The problem may also be that the samples were taken under heavily planted willow banks that were designed in the 70's by Soil Con to halt erosion, not to reverse degradation (aggradation).

    I would hope the context that permies are planting willows is as a means to an end, and to try and employ their use to correct stream incision and re-connect the channel to the floodplain. Or they are making some cool basketry...
     
  13. Raymondo

    Raymondo Junior Member

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    I must admit I hadn't thought of that. I will definitely check. As far as is known, this area was only ever used as a summer hunting ground. Two main groups used it, one from the south west and the other from the east. Descendants of both groups live in town permanently so there may well be some with stories to tell.

    Matto, thanks for that quote from Wilsons work. Interesting.
     
  14. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    the fossil record here seems to indicate deciduous trees!
    The coffee support species red ceder is deciduous is white ceder native
    last week i drove to Manilla ;bleak moonscape ;;the onley faint glimmers of hope were a few white ceders ,gleditsias and some carob and albizzias in the township
     
  15. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    CSIRO are wrong again. Don't touch the tree's until you can prove that it would be best to remove them. I think this might be another CSIRO money in my pocket project. Sorry to say this, but I do not trust CSIRO any more.
     
  16. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Peter, I've noticed a bit an anti-CSIRO agenda developing within your posts. Which is fine, of course, if you have any evidence to put forward to support your position/s. Furthermore, I'd like to ask you a question: Is there any particular issue you have with one or more of the 6,500-plus scientists (of which a few are both my colleagues, and my friends) that work at CSIRO, or are you simply content to make broad-sweeping generalisations? If the former, I'd be interested to study them. If the latter, I think it does little to further the cause of permaculture. I also think it is a bit rich to bag the integrity of others, without at least putting your own work forward for scrutiny. Cheers, Markos.
     
  17. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    Firstly, I am only talking about agricultural microbes.
    If they do have valuable knowledge of beneficial agricultural-microbes uses and applications why don’t they release this information to the public?
     
  18. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Peter, your question has been answered here, now if you will only afford me the same courtesy and answer mine: Could you please provide scientific evidence as to the efficacy of the product/s you are promoting? Cheers, Mark.
     
  19. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    I have never had any scientific trials done utilizing my microbes. I personally don’t think it is worth the time and money. I don’t ever produce brochures, pamphlets, etc. My policy is to ‘give’ some of my microbes to interested parties to try – I have never allowed anyone associated with me to go out selling my microbes. I get people out in the field to give my products away for trials.
     
  20. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Oh, in that case I genuinely wish you well, and thank you for answering my question.
     

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