Permaculture for vegans

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself Here' started by veganpermie, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. veganpermie

    veganpermie Junior Member

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    Hi there, I am just embarking on setting up a permaculture system in Central Victoria, Australia that is suitable for me on a vegan diet and not wanting to use any animal products including manure. I have been familiar with permaculture for a long time and finished building my own house about 7 years ago with plans to continue with the garden but got sidetracked by pregancy and child-rearing. I have just finally actually done a PDC and am dedicating this year to a Cert 3 in permaculture and really getting stuck into the garden. I am finding that while vegan permaculture or vegan organic agriculture is happening in England and America there is nothing much locally that I can find. I am really interested in hearing from anyone who has similar interests or can offer suggestions for suitable inputs. I have a bush block with reasonably poor soil for what I want to grow (anything I can grow and eat!). Therefore I will definitely need inputs initially and have so far imported lucerne hay and a tiny bit of that seeweed juice. I plan to grow weeds on small ponds (azolla?) and have planted some green manures (broad beans etc). I am currently investigating compost teas and am thinking about doing a soil test. I have just swaled half an acre and am planting it with fruit trees (forest garden?) etc.

    I would love to chat with, or hear from, anyone else interested in this idea or who has anything else to suggest that would help. I am also interested in vegan woofers or others who might want to come and help me!

    Thanks
     
  2. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Welcome:)
    What are your objections to animal manures or a few chooks, a pig or cow?
    Many small scale Permies rarely eat their animals, as they become pets, but they do help the growing process.
    Plants and soil microrganisms have developed a symbiotic relationship with animals and their poo.

    A soil test is a good idea. Buy a pH testing kit ($20-30)which will enable you to test your soil hundreds of times.
    If things are growing well, you are green manuring, adding lots of organic matter, using compost teas, using sea weeds, then i would probably not go to the expense of a full scale soil analysis.

    How old are the kids now?
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I'm curious too about where insects fit with your ethics - are you ok using worm farms for instance? And life forms that we can't usually see eg soil microbia?

    It's certainly possible to garden without animal manure or animals in a permie system but it's not nearly as efficient so you need a good reason not to (given that pc is about keeping the work input to output ratio low). Do you want to say what the ethical parameters are?
     
  4. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    It almost sounds like you don't like animals. I can't see where the merit lies in your approach.

    Urine is good. It has a high nitrogen content.

    Wow I just read something i overlooked in my compost book - molasses - It is the sugar in horse poo that helps to accelerate the compost process. You can achieve hte same purpose with 500g of molasses mixed with 10 litres of warm water and poured over slow composting material such as straw. This causes rapid temperature increase. I think i will give this a try.
     
  5. cassio

    cassio Junior Member

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    Hi, veganpermie!

    I applaud your approach to the system, I believe I understand fully your grounds, and I wish you all the success in the world.

    What I think I can suggest is that you try do include in your system as many native plant species as possible of those which would attract and foment native fauna. I expect this could be beneficial to the system in terms of manure, pollinization, insect balance, seed spreading, etc, a wonderful thing in all possible ways.

    Cheers,
    Cassio.
     
  6. cassio

    cassio Junior Member

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    There is a section in this forum (Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volunteering) that you can use to advertise your situation.

    By the way, welcome to the forum!
     
  7. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I agree with Cassio's point about designing around natives (and naturalised wildlife). It'd still be good to know what the parameters are on your vegan practice, asit can vary from person to person.
     
  8. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

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    I will help you out with some advice,use plastic bags over all your pollen producing plants to keep the bees off.This will work for bugs as well.Dont worry about pollination,or useful predator bugs you can usher them to other homes and do the job by by hand.The bags should keep the birds away as well,It will be hard not to exploit the efforts of animals in your garden,.I am not sure of any support species for your orchard though as I am not sure that you can fix nitrogen without the aid of bacterias(the jains in india wear masks to avoid killing them) so I am guessing that the compost team might not be a go either.Worms I guess are out as well.I once heard of a fellow that was going to grow plants by opening their chakras and I have also seen a study where you can play classical music to them.I am sure that it will be ok though even with the absence of a healthy and diverse microbial soil food web.Azolla is a no go little critters zoo plankton and phytoplankton will mean that every scoop is a genocide.
    It sure sound like a tough road to hoe but I am sure the rewards will be ever so sweet knowing that you have done it without the aid of animals or exploiting them for labor.The coleman hoe is a good hoe to use and I think the search term you are looking for is Veganics.Also a question on the lucerene I understand it wonderful propeties but in my opinion it is not a sustainable input as it has a vast amount of embedded energy in it's production.Goo Luck with this.
     
  9. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Oh come on Fernando, that just makes veganism a too easy target ;-)

    I would hazard a guess that for (some) vegans the difference is between how the animals are treated. So in my own ethical system I differentiate between keeping a chicken in a battery cage and a chicken that is in a pen with organic food, sunlight and some ability to move, whereas a vegan might see all caging or fencing as a problem. Other people place the differentiation differently, as I'm sure you do. Until we know the particular person's value and ethical system, then are we really in a position to help or make passive aggressive points? ;-p

    I can understand not wanting to keep chickens in runs, but am more unclear about worm farms and composts because the ethical dividing lines are becoming very blurry there.

    I have some concern that this thread will divert into a debate about the merits or not of veganism within permaculture, but it's not really the place to do that. Maybe we need a different thread for that, so that this thread can be about helping a relative forum newbie and making them feel welcome (even if some of us disagree with some of their approach)?

    We forget about the caring for people ethic all too frequently.
     
  10. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    After I responded last time i thought i could see a point in not using manure from outside since you don't know if the people who owned the animals were sending their animals to slaughter or not or how they are cared for. But then that would suggest that the right thing to do is to have your own animals so you know that they are well looked after and lead good free lives. I can't see how people can object to using animals at all say for eggs or labour since people use people for labour also and we know its not all bad. In fact it can feel quite good to do some exercise.

    Having been in INdia and loved being surrounded by domesticated animals in so many situations, I think there is a vital place for animals in our world. If veganism were to take over, there would be no place for animals in human lives and we would be spiritually much poorer. A domesticated animals life is also often much more comfortable and safe than those of wild animals. (obviously i am not thinking of battery hens or the like but pet animals from ducks and chickens to cats and dogs. I must say i think veganism is severely misguided. Go back to Peter Singer he's much more sensible in his approach.
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I don't see anything in veganpermie's post about taking over the world ;-) Surely diversity of human ethical practice is a useful and healthy thing?
     
  12. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    It's implicit. Just as I would like everyone to be vegetarian (like most vegetarians), you'd think it normal that a vegan would prefer it if we were all vegans. If not, then i can't see any reason for choosing to be a vegan in the first place unless they thought it was a healthier diet and there was no moral principle for doing it.
     
  13. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I was vegetarian (for ethical reasons) for many years and most of that time I didn't believe that the whole world should be (I did and do still believe that it would be better if the whole world made ethical decisions about food). I do agree that many vegans can be more militant about it than that ;-)
     
  14. Fernando Pessoa

    Fernando Pessoa Junior Member

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    I used to laugh when I spotted a grey faced,wide eyed gaunt vegan,with a sallow snarl on the soapbox ranting about good health,animal rights and politics.The poor dear holding onto the microphone pole so he didn't fall down from exhaustion.
    The other side of the coin is the clean skinned angelic complexion of the vegans who concentrate on the food nourishment side of the argument,who are into clean clean living and holistic health which includes tolerance and understanding on a spiritual level so they are way less wound up.The former style of Vegan has usually blown all the electrolytes out and are half way insane so I never pay much attention to them other than comic relief.The later style of Vegan I enjoy and they often have a vast knowledge of nutrition and food but have very little anger or politics.It take all types.
     
  15. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Most of the vegans I've known have been people, often men, in their 20s or even late teens. They're usually activists but healthy looking - they haven't been vegan long enough to get malnourished yet ;-) I don't usually find them ranters though, just committed in a youthful way. Some of them are paying attention to the nutrition, some aren't.

    Eating vegan is hard work if you aren't relying on processed foods. I wonder how hard it is to do permie practice and design if one excludes all animal help (again the worms and compost question).
     
  16. Adam

    Adam Junior Member

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    I couldn't agree more with what you said, sun burn.
     
  17. veganpermie

    veganpermie Junior Member

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    Wow so many replies, this is an active forum!.
    How to respond to such diverse replies?

    Thank you to those who responded to my post. I realise that by being a vegan I automatically really annoy some people, I have been vegan for about 20 years and have had endless discussions I did not start and didn't want to take part in. As a few people posted there is as much diversity in the views of different vegans as there is for different omni's. Could I please ask that people who have a need to debate veganism's merits do so elsewhere and only people who are really happy to give me constructive advice on what I want to do post here? I would really appreciate that as I am pretty busy and want to get on with my garden! If I get caught up in the debate/explaining my personal philosophy beyond how it applies to my garden I probably won't learn anything that will help me with my actual project.

    I should perhaps have been more careful with my wording! I don't wish to own and look after any DOMESTICATED animals at my place.

    A few people asked what my parameters are so maybe I should list what I do and don't want to do in point form for the people who really want to help me out with this:

    * I have been planning on planting natives to attract small birds and thinking about how to net out the large ones. Happy to have their poo, don't want them to eat (all) my fruit.
    * I can't work out how to let the kangaroos in (as they mow my lawn) and keep the wallabies out (as they eat everything) so I am fencing some areas completely and just individual trees in other areas. I am happy for the kangaroos to poo!
    * I have a composting toilet and use our composted poo on trees. I also use our urine.
    * I have no problems with insects that pollinate my plants and eat other insects and hang around looking pretty
    * I reluctantly accept that I will inadvertently kill all manner of insects, frogs etc while gardening. I only actively kill mozzies.
    * I am probably OK with worm farms in principle but not sure that I want one, still dwelling on this. Actually what I call my 'compost' is actually a free range worm farm.
    * I am happy to breed microorganisms and very interested in trying compost teas soon. And maybe getting a real compost going.
    * I am happy to import from off-site to get going. I have been getting spoiled Lucerne from a local organic farmer, I have to start up some-how, my soil is not great. I don't know any permies who haven't imported something at the beginning of their project and many import large amounts of animal feed and other things for a long time/forever. Overall I will always try to minimise embodied energy where I can. I am sure having this garden will be more ethical environmentally than not having this garden.
    * I would also bring in compost initially if I could find any I was happy with, I am trying to find a council green waste compost nearby that is 100% green waste (not including old furniture with lead paint and formaldehyde like at the closest tip).

    I did a PH test on my soil some years ago and it was 4.5! those areas (which are vege beds) I recently tested again and are now 6-7. Additions were a little lime, Lucerne straw and my vegie scraps. But some things don't grow well here (like brassica's) and I need to know more. I probably just need heaps more compost not just the little I sort of make. In my permaculture group we debated the merits of soil tests in my situation and I am dwelling on whether to do it or not, I don't want to kill off the life I do have in my soil with additions and I don't want to be always deficient/or deficient for a lot longer than I need to be either.

    To answer somebodies question, I only have one child and he is 7 and a half.

    Thanks, I look forward to some new ideas!
     
  18. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day veganpermie

    Welcome to the PRI Forum.

    I know of one other couple who are living the vegan life in our part of the world, I will direct them to this thread. Maybe they can help you with some of your requests?

    Probably the biggest challenge you are going to face is with our skeletal soils, and highly variable, yet relatively sparse rainfall. We grow vegetables and herbs in raised beds, in compost that we have generated on site, but with a lot of input from outside resources. Our fruit and nut trees are struggling in the dry, compacted clays - my own fault, I did not rip deeply enough. Swales, drains and soaks (don't have a large enough site for a dam) are vital, if you want to get some moisture back into the soil and encourage biotic activity. Not sure how that fits with the ethic, however.

    Anyway, good luck with your chosen path, please keep us up to date with how you get on.

    Cheerio, Marko.
     
  19. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Hmmm, reminds me of a saying I once heard (read?) in passing: 'The only difference between a person with tattoos, and a person without, is the person with them does not care if the person without then has them or not'.
     
  20. sun burn

    sun burn Junior Member

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    A nice saying but its got no relevance to a vegan of moral choosing surely. Better would be to compare permaculture to veganism.
     

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