Running on veggie oil

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by earthbound, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    SVO/WVO conversions, excise duty implications, etc

    Hi,
    I have done some research into converting diesel engines to run on SVO/WVO. Currently running a Landcruiser BJ42 (3B engine) on WVO and in the process of installing a kit into a Mazda Bravo 2.5 Turbo.
    My experience so far (in order of importance):
    1. Driving my BJ on WVO is putting a smile on my face daily... Th BJ uses 15ltr/100Km: 15ltr * $0.00 = $0.00/100Km!
    2. Continuously collecting and preparing (filtering, etc) WVO is a major pain. Both messy and time consuming. So why do it? See 1.
    3. The conversion itself is relatively easy for the average home handyman/mechanic.
    4. Making up your own kit is easy, but sourcing some of the components can be frustrating. But you only have to do that once - see 2.
    5. The type of diesel engine and injection pump is important. If either/both blow up you wont be smiling any more!
    6. The cost of components is approx $300.00, depending on how far you want to automate the process.
    7. WVO does not attract excise duty and needs no license to store it - Biodiesel does (38cents/ltr)! I have an ATO "Administratively Binding Advice" on the subject (soon to be posted on the ATO website AN 55949)

    I am happy to answer any questions or elaborate, you can have a look at https://www.tiemann.com.au/tiemannfamily/toyota_bj42.htm for more details or email [email protected]
    Happy motoring,
    OT

    P.S. Toyota Hilux is ok if it is indirect injection (to find out get your engine model and see https://www.off-road.com/tlc/faq/engine.html#HD_NM_18)
     
  2. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    This subject really amazes me. I have just brought a block of land that has a 1940's tractor with it. Am definately going to look into the possibility of running it on WVO. And if I buy a second vehicle, will make sure I get a diesel!
     
  3. baldcat

    baldcat Junior Member

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    OT, I have a 94 Cruiser 1HZ

    What would I need / Do ?? I work for a John Deere Dealership so finding diesel mechincs shouldn't be a problem.. And the footy club owns the pub.. So getting the old oil is less a hassle...

    I drive 100km a day, but have had to stop driving DOT (Dirty old Truck) due to the cost every week.... If I could get her on oil... Man, I'll be one happy vegie..
     
  4. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Toyota 1HZ WVO conversion

    Hi Dan,
    I have sent you an email with more details.
    Just for other interested parties to see though:
    I consider the 1HZ engine to be suitable for conversion.
    IMPORTANT:
    1. Even heated WVO is more viscous than cold diesel. The injection pump will experience higher loads and may fail earlier than when run on diesel.
    2. Not all WVO 's are equally suitable. Viscosity and/or acidity can create problems.
    My advise before you subject your diesel engine to WVO:
    Enquire about the cost of a total injection pump rebuild for your model and/or a replacment from the wreckers (if available).
    I suspect that most owners of newer, expensive diesel powered cars will be turned off by the answers they'll get.
    If you still want to proceed, I am happy to provide diagrams, parts lists, installation advise (for free, of course).
    OlT
     
  5. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Hi OT

    would you have any idea whether as 1992 Navarra would be suitable to run on TVO?

    hubby is in the home handy man category not a mechanic but knows his stuff

    would appreciate any informtion you could send about the components

    regards
    frosty (Anne) and Phil
     
  6. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Nissan Navara

    Hi Frosty,
    I'd need your vehicles year and model and the diesel engine model number (ZD30, etc).
    If you can't find it, take it to a diesel specialist shop and asked if the engine is of the "indirect direct injection" variety and what make and model diesel injection pump it uses. (While you're there, ask how much a injection pump rebuild would cost!)

    WVO Rule of thumb:
    Indirect injection engine = :D
    Direct injction engine = :?
    Common Rail Techonology = :evil:
    Older Bosch, Nippon Denso piston type injection pump = :D
    Distributor type injection pump (Bosch, Zexel, etc) = :)
    Lucas injection pump = :evil:

    Hope this helps.
    Please email me with the info for more detailed advice...
    Regards,
    Olaf
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hello OT,

    I have been reading your posts with interest, and love your Land Cruiser. What a beautiful truck....

    Anyways... a question for you. I have two trucks, both Hilix with the 2.8 liter diesel at 12 vdc. I am not sure if they are different (I drive well, but leave everthing other than hoses and belts to qualified people, of which I am not one...)

    One is an older truck, a 1996, which is mine and I bought it while working for a chocolate company. It has a The other is a 2002 which the project got cheap from someone trading it into get a newer model. The engines look superficially the same, tho the batteries are on different sides of the engine compartment.

    I am told that they are both "third world edition", and they lack bells and whistles like heaters, tho they both have AC, and the 4wd works in both of them.

    I mentioned earlier, in this thread (me thinks) that I used styraght veggie oil, unheated as a diesel substitute for a short time with no ill effects in the older truck. I digress....

    Moving forward, and before I go off on some tangeant, can you tell me where on your happiness scale my trucks fit?

    Thanks for your info, and I look forward eagerly to hearing from you here at this very exciting forum!

    Thanks again,

    Christopher
     
  8. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Hilux WVO conversion

    Hi Christopher,
    virtually all Hilux diesl engines are suitable for WVO conversion. However, I would always recommend running WVO via a two tank system:
    You start the engine with diesel until op-temp is reached, then switch over to WVO. Switch back to diesel a few km's before you reach your destination (or use a modified turbo timer to run the eninge for a few minutes after switch off). This conversion is not as difficult as it sounds. I can provide help with diagrams, parts lists and sourcing, as well as instructions.
    By the way, my origninal posting was inspired by your Hilux question, the P.S. at the end was ment for you.
    Best regards,
    Olaf
     
  9. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Olaf,

    Thanks. You know, I saw the Hilux quote, and I know others here have posted about Hiluxes, so didn't know if it applied to me.....

    Thanks for your offer of information, parts lists, especially instructions (I understand it is a hose intensive type of thing, which I think I could do...... I am extremely interested.... sooo.....
    What is involved? How much down time (how long to fix such a system?) is involved?

    Digressive topic, for which I am known.. the digressive part, but what year is that drop dead gorgeous blue Land Cruiser? It looks brand spankin' new! Its probably not PC cool to admire trucks, but there is a part of me that loves function and form, and Toyotas are just wonderful on so many levels. My '96 has half a million miles on it, and it still starts up easy, runs like a top, tho it is one ugly truck, with scrapes, dents and a fading paint job and what is left of a cheezy tint job puit in by an amateur when the thing was new, I think....

    I look forward to hearing more! Thanks again for your offer!

    Christopher
     
  10. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Nice work Olaf,

    Thanks for that info.... I'm going to assume that my 93 hilux with a 3L motor is fit for the job.. I know that the injector was an important issue, but mine doesn't say what type it is either on it, or in the manual. From other bits I have read on the net I think I'm right as it has a more square end to it (bosch/nippon), rather than a round end (lucas)... My hilux already has a couple of extra 50L tanks tanks under the tray, with an electric pump that pumps fuel from these tanks into the standard tank, so it's half way there in the setup already.

    Do you use an inline coolant fuel heater, an inline electric, or a tank heater? Inline coolant seems like the cheapest method, but then inline electric is probably the most simple way, though possibly harder to source in Aus.

    Thanks
    Joel
     
  11. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    You can make an inline electric heater with a brass "t", a glow plug that is rated for "always on" and a bushing that will fit the plug into one orifice of the "t", a switch, a "snap disc" thermostat (commonly used in home furnaces) in the range of where you want to heat your vegoil, and a relay. You'll need a couple of barbed fittings that fit your fuel line and clamps too, of course. All easy parts to buy in any auto parts and/or hardware store. Costs about twenty bucks? I think Dana Linscott sells his pdf file for $20 or so. Has the wiring schematic and instructions. (in my ideal world he would give hios great ideas away, but sadly the world sings to a different tune :lol: )
    if you put your heater right before your filter you will be sure to have hot oil going into the filter (where it is likely to plug up if it isn't warm enough to have a fluid viscosity).
    You will still want to use your coolant heat, as this is much more efficient than working your alternator and batteries, and your diesel is creating so much heat that isn't used for anything much anyway...
     
  12. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Hi Earthbound,
    just for the record - your method of identifying injection pumps may not be all that accurate. The "round ended" pumps are not necessarily made by Lucas. "Round" injection pumps (injector supply lines are arranged in a circle) are usually distributor type pumps (also called rotary). They are suitable for WVO conversions unless they are of the Lucas brand*.
    I do not know of any Hilux diesel models that use Lucas pumps. Most recent models use Zexel (Kiki) distributor type pumps which are suitable. See https://www.vegburner.co.uk/suitability.htm for more info on why Lucas pumps are not suitable.
    My advice on suitablility and to test your intestinal fortitude for a WVO conversion: Take your Hilux to your local diesel specialist and ask these questions:
    1. Is the engine using "indirect injection" (Yes = :D )
    2. Is the injection pump made by Delphi, Lucas, CAV, Stanadyne or Roto-Diesel. (No = :D )
    3. Can you afford an injection pump rebuild. (Yes = :D )

    As to methods of heating your WVO: There are no problems with sourcing components in Australia for either method. Anyhow, we are living in a global village, remember. I get my Pollak 6-port valves from the USA. Takes 4 days and costs about half the price you pay in Australia.
    Heating WVO:
    In temperate climates, "hose in hose" heating is simpler, cheaper and so much more "permaculture" like. Your engine produces heat anyhow, why not use it. Electric heaters use power from your alternator, which are no longer designed to handle excessive loads. Anyhow, the more current you draw from your alternator, the more fuel your engine will use.
    Just in case you believe that electric heaters allow you to run your engine on WVO sooner, consider this:
    What chance have the (electrically heated) few cubic centimeters of hot WVO entering your cold (several pounds heavy) lump of cold metal injection pump have to stay hot long enough to make it to the injectors. :?
    Always run your diesel engine to operating tempreature on (thin) diesel before switching to WVO. By that time your radiator fluid is hot enough to use in your cheap hose in hose WVO heater.
    Place the "hose in hose" line as close to the injection pump as possible, this will ensure that WVO entering the pump is as hot as possible. Considerations about cold WVO clogging your (separate WVO) fuel filter cartridge are a waste of time if you are living in Perth or Brisbane. Anyhow, by looping the injection pump return line back to between the WVO tank and the WVO filter and 12volt fuel pump, the whole system will heat up in a very short time.
    I think I'll have to pull all this info together and put it on my website. I am beginning to repeat myself, because of the interest my original posting has generated.
    Please do yourself a favour and do the "have I got the guts" test above. I'd hate to see a grown man cry if things go wrong on my account.
    I'll post an updated diagram suitable for your engine on my website soon. I might even get on of my sons to take some pictures of the hose in hose fittings to demonstrate how easy the setup really is.
    Let me know if you need anything else. I am happy to help...
    Best regards,
    Olaf
     
  13. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Whats involve to use WVO in your diesel engine

    Hi Chris,
    I am getting a bit owerwhelmed by the response. Please bear with me...
    I'll pull all the relevant information from my posted (and numerous email) responses together and publish them on my website soon.
    What's involved:
    Once you have all your components neatly scattered around your vehicle, the job can be accomplished in a day or less. If you need your vehicle for work, etc. you better set aside a weekend. None of what is required is irreversable, so you can "give up" until next weekend if you make a hash of things.
    The bare minimum conversion took me about 4 hours. Adding bells and whistles like a nifty little mounted switch under the dash with a blue (automatic), red (diesel) and green LED (for WVO of course) took considerably longer (the electrical diagram is posted on my website). Since then I have added a (modified) turbo timer and other items commensurate with my obsessive/compulsive character (I am quoting my wife, naturally).
    I'll say it once again:
    Please do the "do I have the guts" test below, before you continue with your WVO conversion.
    1. Is the engine using "indirect injection" (Yes - :D )
    2. Is the injection pump made by Delphi, Lucas, CAV, Stanadyne or Roto-Diesel. (No - :D )
    3. Can you afford an injection pump rebuild. (Yes - :D )
    If you come up all smiling you are ready to go...
    Have fun,
    Olaf
     
  14. bushy

    bushy Junior Member

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    There is a company based south coast NSW that collects oil all over southern nsw, and quite a lot of it is chicken fat from takeaways. The finished product is for sale. I believe the government gave them hassels regarding the tax component of fuels for sale This doesn't aswer any questions, just info only!
     
  15. OT

    OT Junior Member

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    Adminstratively Binding Advice

    I have applied for and received an ATO Administrativley Binding Advice (Authorisation No 55949).
    It states that:
    1. Excise duty is not applicable to crude S/WVO that you use as a fuel.
    2. You are not required to be licensed to store and use the crude S/WVO.
    3. You do not have an excise liability on the S/WVO that you use as a fuel.
    4.Grants are not available to you as the manufacturer and/or user of the S/WVO that you use as fuel.

    The Advice is rather lengthy in its qualifications, etc. They will post it on their website shortly (https://www.ato.gov.au)
    The main points are that mixing WVO with diesel WILL make it subject to excise duty (go figure). Mixing it with other chemicals or liquids and/or processing it into biodiesel WILL make it subject to excise duty.
    Starting a diesel engine on diesel and then switching to (undiluted) WVO will NOT make the WVO subject to excise duty.

    I did not seek the advise for companies seeking to profit from selling WVO. It was purely done because I believe that governments have a legitimate right to apply excise duty as they see fit and I prefer to comply with their regulations.
    Lucky for WVO'ers it appears to be legal to use and free of excise duty. :D
    OT
     
  16. mark

    mark New Member

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    Hi all,
    well I gave a few collection companies a call yesterday in Vic and one will sell me WVO for between $100 - 150 per 200l drum. So 50 75c a litre. Still seems a bit rich for used oil but less than diesel. They said they filter it of solids but would probably still need some filtering I presume. The guy asked what I would use it for and was very suprised when I said for my car!! Thought it might be easier though, rather than going around getting fish and chip oil at few places a week. Am still finding out though about what parts I need and where I can get them in Australia/ Victoria.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  17. Michael30.06

    Michael30.06 New Member

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    converted since 1999

    I have been running a 1981 Landcruiser SWB 4cyl Diesel on Straight Veggie Oil in Townsville North Queensland since Christmas 1999. I did the conversion myself and have had no trouble at all. You will not need a kit and can do the whole thing for about $180. The only reason I am now selling the car is lack of carrying capacity in the SWB. As soon as I find a replacement ute that will carry a full ton I will be converting it to SVO cause I've always got a few hundred litres on hand. By the way if you knowanyone who wants an old Cruiser Shorty for $3000. let me know.
     
  18. Bootstrapper

    Bootstrapper Junior Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    I was wondering if it was possible to use 20% to 30% VO as an 'extender' in an otherwise unmodified fuel system. I drive a near new Peugeot diesel car. Your thoughts?

    Paul
     
  19. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Paul,

    I did just that with my 96 Toyota when diesel fuel became non existent here. Towards the end we were probably using close to %100 veggie oi, though it was unused direct from the gallon (need being the prime motivator in this experiment).

    Don't see why it wouldn't work. ALl the books I have read say the main problem with SVO is that it can gel in line, making fuel delivery to the injectors impossible. However, by thinning the SVO with the more volatile diesel, this shouldn't be a problem.

    Take the above with a grain of salt as I am not a mechanic.

    C
     
  20. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Some people do blends of mostly vegoil, with maybe 20% diesel and with small amounts of regular unleaded gasoline, and stuff like diesel fuel service, to add octane or something. keeping the mixture well mixed is key.
    on the biodiesel infopop boards there was a guy from alabama or somewhere warm like that who put a lot of miles on a f350 using a blend like that. His board name was kugelsicher so the type of blend he was running became known on the boars as the kugel blend...
     

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