What does it say about permaculture...

Discussion in 'Forum Info and Questions' started by Dalzieldrin, Nov 24, 2009.

  1. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    ...or even about this board, that there is a "foe" setting?

    I've never seen or read or heard permaculture described as a philosophy or a system (or whatever descriptor suits you) that seeks to ignore those parts of the environment that it finds inconvenient. Surely one of the strengths of permaculture is that it has at its core the call to "observe": careful observation leads to good design; ongoing observation, criticism and analysis and reevaluation leads to better design. Selective, blinkered observation, on the other hand, leads inevitably to poor design. We rail so passionately about what's wrong with the world on this board and how permaculture is a way through the morass but if someone disagrees with us we can just label them a foe and ignore what they have to say. This is unhealthy and unproductive.

    Having a "foe" option promotes selective, blinkered observation. It does not promote the free exchange of ideas, rather the filtered set of ideas that different individuals choose not to ignore. It protects 'sacred cows' - is permaculture so weak an idea that it has to be mollycoddled in this way?

    "The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."
     
  2. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    Maybe, just maybe, you're reading too much into it. The "foe" thing is just a standard feature of the particular forum software that's being used. It may not be possible to disable it, or perhaps it has just slipped under the radar of the forum maintainers (I certainly hadn't seen it until now). I'm pretty sure it wasn't deliberately put there as a statement about permaculture.
     
  3. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    :-D at your first sentence - always a possibility!

    wasn't meaning to imply that it was put there at the site's inception for the purposes of a statement about permaculture. I certainly hadn't considered that it might not be disable-able.

    what I was driving at was more that it's being used - does its use promote a forum that nurtures free and open exchange of ideas or a sanctuary for sacred cows?
     
  4. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    May be we can change it to "doe" to mark us deer single ladies that might want a date?
     
  5. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    How do you know it's being used (i.e. what signs are there)? And how much is it being used currently?

    Agreed. However...

    There is a reasonably high tolerance for hard-arsed debate in this forum (and by that I mean people being rude and inconsiderate). I see posts that wouldn't be tolerated on other forums I go to. Mostly it's about how some people communicate and often I see a lack of care around that. I find it intriguing, because for me permaculture is as much about sustainable human relationships as it is about relationships with the rest of the world but often in those full on debates the relationships aren't being nurtured. If people trampled over their gardens like some do over other people's words they'd have problems growing veges ;-)

    I haven't talked about this with anyone on this forum, but I know from doing alot of group work over the last 30 years that that degree of rudeness will inhibit debate as much as in engenders it. It limits free exchange of ideas to the people who can handle rudeness, because not everyone can. For every person who rises to the challenging debates there will be other people who simply walk away because they don't want to relate like that or they have better things to do with their time than manage that kind of relating. Their voices then don't get heard.

    Personally I don't think a foe option is a good way of responding to that, but I completely understand that in an environment like the internet for some people that is a useful option of managing people who trample over other people's feelings.


    Aside from all that, I don't think the foe option says anything about permaculture in general, or this board. It's a feature that turned up in one of the phpBB upgrades in the last while (year or two?). Getting it turned off would require (a) us knowing that is technically possible and (b) having a conversation with Murray, and probably a conversation with the forum members. Knowing the answer to (a) would be useful don't you think?
     
  6. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    this is very touching - all the best with your quest

    good idea, too!
     
  7. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    pebble, what a great post - I'm glad this is generating some thoughtful responses!

    I guess I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but I wanted to tease out some ideas here:

    in some parts of the forum there's definitely robust discussion - other parts, I'm not so sure that 'hard-arsed debate' is very welcome. I also frequent forums where some of the things that go on here would be pounced and pretty quick - but by the same token I've spent some time on forums that make this place look like a gathering for church mice (and I know that those people meet each other for a beer after their dustups!). I say that because when i first started posting here (after spending quite some time just reading) I probably approached discussions with a harder head than some others in the discussion were using. I can see how the way I've approached discussions could be seen as rude but I think there's another subtle form of rudeness that crops up from time to time here (and no more here than anywhere else). The most compact way I can think to put this is: lets say you post that you have a theory that there is no gravity, that really the earth sucks and then go to provide absolutely no justification for what you claim. I ask you to back up what your saying and all I get in return is masterful dodging and weaving, but nothing that could be called a presentation of evidence-in-support-of. At some point I come to a decision: do I let this rest or do I tell you that your theory doesn't appear to hold water? If I let it rest then it poisons the well of good ideas - rubbish should be contested! But if I choose to contest your claim it can very difficult to say, with text alone, on a web forum, that, even though you're probably a lovely person in real life, you're on a stinker with this gravity thing. No matter what I do if I attempt to interfere with your sacred cow I will appear very very rude.

    I should get to the point - which is that, what about the rudeness of making a claim and then not having the courage to stand your ground and defend it and then withdraw it when it has been shown to be baseless?

    To tie this back to the point of the thread (which is fast becoming no point at all!) - ignoring people (ie. having a foe button) who are rude by the first defintion is easy, and they're so easy to spot, too! But by doing this are the people who are rude by the second definition getting away with something that, to me at least, is just rude as the first type?


    looks like a rant, probably smells like a rant - aint nothing like a rant though, see -> :-D
    and i'm not even sure it's make any sense



    well said - i keep going back and rereading this. 'preciate your input.
     
  8. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    I am glad you all started to laugh about this

    This forum program is an "Off the shelf" model.
    You will see hidden in the grass at the bottom of this page " Powered by phpBB © 2000"
    If you click on that you can go and talk to the people who write and develop this program.
    Suggest perhaps a "world peace"' button/option rather than 'foe"?
    Moderators spend many hours there learning the arcane rituals of Powered by phpBB © 2000
    One day we all hope to be elevated to the Chosen Enlightened State where All Will Be Revealed to us.
    Such eternal life problems like "Why won't the bloody smilies work?"

    Sometimes moderation can create too sterile an environment. We are talking about issues that really matter--aren't we??
    Moderators should be keeping people to the topic (What IS the topic here?) and stopping personal 'flame' attacks.
    I ask people to attack the argument NOT the poster. We can't be everywher all the time so PM us (pick one) and tell us your concerns.
    But winning an internet argument is like winning a gold medal at. . . .;)
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    me too - and i ask that it be done consistently

    I so glad you've posted that and that we can all now laugh about it as friends

    I'm sure no-one will be offended on several different levels if i say

    "50000 battered women..."

    (hint: google that)
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    That's TERRIBLE!!
    And you call yourself a one of the Permaculturalist Faith!!!
    I am disgusted!!

    lol

    lol

    LOL

    LOL

    LOL
    ;)
    PS I was looking for this
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    this thread look far too much like free speech

    time to lock it up
     
  12. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    Dalzieldrin
    you are spamming the board.
    This is childish and is just testing my and other members patience.
    I think i have answered your concerns re "free speech"
    If you think you can do a better job moderating put yourself up for the job.
     
  13. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    spam? lol
     
  14. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    That is your considered, thoughtful, intelligent reply?
     
  15. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    no, it's a dismissive response - we work with different definitions of spam
     
  16. newcroft

    newcroft Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    Well, to be accurate; it's not spam(there's no selling). It's trolling.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
     
  17. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    wrong - I'm not here to stir sh*t - sorry that you feel that way
    posted about this very conundrum in this very thread
     
  18. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...


    It seems to me that in the main you are trolling Daz and I think you are much more entertaining when you stay with the discussion and not interupt or disrupt. Please.
     
  19. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: What does it say about permaculture...

    noted - disagree with the first bit, but noted all the same
     
  20. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    scuse me Generals, there is a footsoldier .....

    I can't find the 'Foe Button'....which motivated by hate (as i am), sounds like a dam nifty device.

    I say; this is a Permaculture forum where we have a notion of our 'foes',,,,perhaps it is those 'big house bastards' messing with the stats., such that Australians are as publicly greedy as yanks now.............?

    I agree on entitled opinions, a fair go, a fair say.........and torching blatant greed.

    I have zero respect for greedy consumptive mainstream, a dinosaur, a big dumb beast...
    and the only way to get it to turn is to run alongside the bastard, hitting it with a stick.

    Permaculture Army here!..........................Salvation Army (bless em) elsewhere,,,now where is that Foe Button.

    what it says about permaculture is; that behind the public face, amid the players, there are some full on radical crazy activist bastards who will engage in civil disobedience (polite reference) smiling all the way,,,(yay gang!,,viva la resistance...dig before dishonour,,,)

    on the front line, getting dirty taking risks....we (well me on behalf of them) want the foe button.........unless ofcourse you think it might stifle debate.
    regards,
    Kimbo
     

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