Bleach for seed germination.

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Michaelangelica, Nov 19, 2009.

  1. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    Thanks, thats more along the lines of what i was after.
     
  2. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    bingo...hence the question...why the distinction when they're both bleaches?

    I hope I haven't scared her off
     
  3. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    I'm sure she'll be back soon.

    Interesting fact...

    Approx 180g portion of spinach = 6.43mg Iron.
    Approx 200g portion of red meat = 6mg Iron.

    We can eat less spinach and gain more iron when compared to red meat.

    Spinach, would be considered healthier than red meat yet we get the same (or better) result from eating the healthier version compared to red meat.
     
  4. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    cooked or uncooked?


    there's more Vitamin C in spuds that in oranges...but it's destroyed when you cook them (spuds, that is)
     
  5. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    Hydrogen Peroxide (from MSDS)
    https://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/h4070.htm

    4. First Aid Measures
    Inhalation:
    Not expected to require first aid measures.
    Ingestion:
    Give several glasses of water to drink to dilute. If large amounts were swallowed, get medical advice.
    Skin Contact:
    Not expected to require first aid measures. Wash exposed area with soap and water. Get medical advice if irritation develops.
    Eye Contact:
    Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Get medical attention immediately.

    Sodium hypochlorite (from MSDS)
    https://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s4106.htm

    4. First Aid Measures
    Inhalation:
    Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Get medical attention immediately.
    Ingestion:
    If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Get medical attention immediately.
    Skin Contact:
    Immediately flush skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing and shoes. Get medical attention immediately. Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly clean shoes before reuse.
    Eye Contact:
    Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Get medical attention immediately.

    Note to Physician:
    Consider oral administration of sodium thiosulfate solutions if sodium hypochlorite is ingested. Do not administer neutralizing substances since the resultant exothermic reaction could further damage tissue. Endotracheal intubation could be needed if glottic edema compromises the airway. For individuals with significant inhalation exposure, monitor arterial blood gases and chest x-ray.
     
  6. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    How you make bleach:

    "Today, an improved version of this method, known as the Hooker process, is the only large scale industrial method of sodium hypochlorite production. In this process sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) and sodium chloride (NaCl) are formed when chlorine is passed into cold and dilute sodium hydroxide solution. It is prepared industrially by electrolysis minimal separation between the anode and the cathode. The solution must be kept below 40 °C (by cooling coils) to prevent the undesired formation of sodium chlorate.

    Cl2 + 2 NaOH ? NaCl + NaOCl+ H2O
    Sodium hydroxide and chlorine are commercially produced by the chloralkali process, and there is no need to isolate them to prepare sodium hypochlorite.

    Hence, chlorine is simultaneously reduced and oxidized.

    The commercial solutions always contain significant amounts of sodium chloride (common salt) as the main by-product, as seen in the equation above."

    How you make bleach:

    "Formerly inorganic processes were used, employing the electrolysis of an aqueous solution of sulfuric acid or acidic ammonium bisulfate (NH4HSO4), followed by hydrolysis of the peroxodisulfate ((SO4)2)2? which is formed.

    However, today hydrogen peroxide is manufactured almost exclusively by the autoxidation of a 2-alkyl anthrahydroquinone (or 2-alkyl-9,10-dihydroxyanthracene) to the corresponding 2-alkyl anthraquinone. Major producers commonly use either the 2-ethyl or the 2-amyl derivative. The cyclic reaction depicted below, shows the 2-ethyl derivative, where 2-ethyl-9,10-dihydroxyanthracene (C16H14O2), is oxidized to the corresponding 2-ethylanthraquinone (C16H12O2) and hydrogen peroxide. Most commercial processes achieve this by bubbling compressed air through a solution of the anthracene, whereby the oxygen present in the air reacts with the labile hydrogen atoms (of the hydroxy group) giving hydrogen peroxide and regenerating the anthraquinone. Hydrogen peroxide is then extracted out and the anthraquinone derivative reduced back to the dihydroxy (anthracene) compound using hydrogen gas in the presence of a metal catalyst. The cycle then repeats itself.[10][11]

    [​IMG]
    This process is known as the Riedl-Pfleiderer process[11], having been first discovered by them in 1936. The overall equation for the process is deceptively simple:[10]

    H2 + O2 ? H2O2
    It is important to point out that the economics of the process depend heavily on effective recycling of the quinone (which is very expensive) and extraction solvents, and of the hydrogenation catalyst."


    both taken from wikipedia (you'll need to go there to see the picture that hasn't come up)


    interesting, no?
     
  7. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    Well some of my "hard to germinate" seeds have come up-without any treatment or fuss. The same time as other capsicum species planted. So i think high temp is the critical factor with them. We have had a few hot days of late.

    Still, I have done a bit of research on this
    I have some tree peony seeds that won't germinate, so I took them out of their pot and soaked them in a 1% bleach solution.(!:5 actually). My thinking was that sitting in a wettish pot for months might have encouraged bacteria and mold on them. i then started to scarify them. Unable to find some sand paper i used a small file on my pen-knife. It was a long laborious process. The seed coat was very hard and took a lot of moving. However i noticed as I started to do more seeds that had been soaking for a while in the bleach (10-15 mins?) the job became a lot easier. So I went to the WWW and found
    https://www.rngr.net/Publications/tpn/43 ... at.../file
    The researchers commented that there was less fungal problems with the bleach solution than with SO2
    Bleach seems to destroy fungus but also soften hard seed coats I would say.
    https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/seed.htm
    The use of bletch for peppers seems to be commonly recommended in the U.S.: but i suspect they are trying to germinate them when the ambient temperature is too low.
    https://www.amishlandseeds.com/garden_tips.htm
    Still, this might be a good trick for kick starting your seeds early in the season or in colder places like Tassie? (Millie?)
    I will have to wait till next year to research this hypothesis.
    I guess H2O2 would also kill fungi; but would it soften the hard pericarp? More experiments are needed.
     
  8. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    I've just soaked many hard to G seeds in plain water for a few hours. Or peas and legumes i find overnight is good.

    Some hardy native seeds do well going through a fire, but apart from that, plain water has always speeded up the germination process.

    The outer shell of the seed just needs to allow water to penetrate to the embryo. Whe the embryo gets wet it swells and germination begins.
     
  9. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    it seems the bleach is just stopping bacteria/fungus...it's not necessarily contributing to soaking...if it _is_ contributing to soaking i wonder how you'd go putting in some table salt as well (or instead, but you won't have the antibacterial/fungal properties of the bleach) - it would have to be dilute salt or you'll shrivel the seeds
     
  10. Michaelangelica

    Michaelangelica Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    MMMmmm that sounds a bit dicey. The peony seeds have been moist for months in vermiculite. The seed catalog i bought them from says they can take 12 months to germinate. Another WWW site says to scarify the seeds. I do think the bletch softened the pericarp.
    I am now experimenting soaking ( in 1:5 bleach) some Ipomena noctiflora that are so hard my pen-knife-file won't make an impression or dent in them. I have soaked these for 24 hours before and got most to germinate.

    I have had some problems with some very old Chilli seed not germinating. I might give them a bash with bleach and see what happens.
    Typing this I note that my hands smell like a swimming pool. Should I revise my will now?
     
  11. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    https://www.peonyseeds.com/growing.html

     
  12. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    yes, it's the end for you
    just be thankful you didn't use hydrogen peroxide
     
  13. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    Sorry, not scared off, just computer problems.

    Since Michaelangelica actually specified what ‘bleach’ meant, ‘I have my bottle of White King bleach which says it is 42g/L or 4% Sodium hypochlorite’, and I specified ‘hydrogen peroxide’, I don’t understand why this Dalzieldrin troll had such a difficult time understanding the difference between these solutions.

    However, Milifestyle's post (thank you) about the differences between bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and hydrogen peroxide should make it obvious what my concerns were… well, to most people, although perhaps not to Dalzieldrin, who seems a little ... obtuse.

    Sue
     
  14. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Bleach for seed germination.

    troll and obtuse...nice work

    i understood perfectly well that when your said you don't like to use bleach you were referring to sodium hypochlorite

    you then went on to advocate the use of another chemical, itself a bleach

    abuse me all you like but I can't see where it has been explained what your problem is with sodium hypochlorite
     

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