36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by Stefan Pasti, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. Stefan Pasti

    Stefan Pasti Junior Member

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    Greetings,

    On the subject of local community, regional, and international peacebuilding, I'd like to recommend a document I wrote and compiled, as part of a current work-in-progress, and as part of my work building The Interfaith Peacebuilding and Community Revitalization (IPCR) Initiative.

    The document is titled "36 Problems That May Arise (in Preparing for, and Implementing, Community Visioning Initiatives)", and it is accessible as a pdf file attached to a journal entry of that same title, at my journal at https://www.worldpulse.com (see https://www.worldpulse.com/node/13829 )


    With Kind Regards,

    Stefan Pasti, Founder and Outreach Coordinator
    The IPCR Initiative
     
  2. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: 36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

    Stefan,

    It looks like a mighty fine document and great authorship. I certainly do not have the level of scholarship to critically analyse what you have said.

    So being a bit thick and a bit widely read I do have a few comments to offer. This document does make for interesting reading and is certainly altruistic in its intent but is it about permaculture and community.

    I offer this not by way of rebuke but as method of questioning the dialogue to open the debate to the wider permaculture community. It would appear that this document has been shared with us for this style of open assessment.

    Hope I got some part of it right.

    cheers,

    ho-hum
     
  3. Stefan Pasti

    Stefan Pasti Junior Member

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    Re: 36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

    Hi ho-hum,

    Thank you for your willingness to explore the “36 Problems…” document. Yes, “shared with you for this kind of open assessment”—and I very much appreciate your kind way of setting up a starting point for some back and forth on this. I do believe there are many parts of this document relevant to permaculture and community (building)—and I will try to show why I believe this, and why I shared this document with PRI, in a way that brings forward a few critical points as clearly as I can.

    Here’s my try.

    If the majority of Permaculture practitioners recognize the dangers of the challenges ahead

    [in this “36 Problems…” document the “Triple Crises” of global warming, peak oil, and widespread resource depletion is one of maybe 9 “problems” which I think the Permaculture community would agree on as either high priority challenges or “be very careful of” precautions….(see 2, 15, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33, 35, and 36)]

    and yet maintain that their contributions do not include cultivating partnerships with other solution oriented initiatives which do not—or do not yet—recognize the significance of Permaculture; then I would say that I might be off the mark to be posting this document at a PRI forum.

    But consider the following (not in the “36 Problems…” document)(it is from an IPCR “post” “Community Visioning Initiatives for the Duration of the Emergency”):

    “Given the nature of complex societies, it is understandable that many of us would like to believe there are experts ‘somewhere’ who understand how we got into this, and must therefore know how we can get out of it. However, this writer very sincerely hopes that more and more people are also coming to the realization that the difficult challenges ahead are not something that the experts will resolve while the rest of us are doing something else…. Everyone is involved when it comes to determining the markets that supply the “ways of earning a living”; and given the unprecedented nature of the challenges ahead, all of us have important responsibilities in the coming months and years ahead.”

    If readers accept what the above paragraph suggests-- that a high degree of citizen participation will be necessary in the years ahead-- then they probably also accept that we need a process for bringing people into solution oriented activity, even if many of the people becoming involved are not in agreement on some issues, or on many issues. What the “36 Problems… document does, if nothing else, is emphasize that it will be important not to underestimate the difficulties of building bridges between diverse communities of people (for example, “’Cultures’ of violence, greed, corruption, and overindulgence have become so common that many of us accept such as inevitable.”—see Problem #3). Not underestimating these difficulties means, in my estimation, that all initiatives and approaches have some reason to be humble, and seek partnerships outside their area of expertise.

    In another post here I made here at the PRI Forum [“Re: The Sustainable (R)evolution Book Project”](from May 10, 2009), I mentioned that one of the questions which I have found unanswered in books about Permaculture is:

    “2) How do each of the different parts of a restructuring a local economy or community building process come to appreciate and value the contributions of the others?”

    The Community Visioning Initiative process, with the “36 Problems…” kind of precautions taken into account, has much potential to contribute to building bridges between diverse communities of people, for the purpose of identifying local specific challenges, and local specific solutions—as it offers an approach that can help different elements of the process appreciate the contributions of the others.

    As a whole, the IPCR Initiative (which I am building)—and specifically Community Visioning Initiatives of the kind advocated by the “1000Communities2” proposal (see https://ipcri.net/images/1000Communities2.pdf or some of the short introductions to that longer document-- listed in “Community Visioning Initiatives for the Duration of the Emergency”)—are efforts to advocate for, and establish, “constellations” of initiatives relevant to the kind of problem solving needed in the years ahead.

    In this way, because of the relevance of Community Visioning Initiatives, and the relevance of being realistic about the myriad difficulties ahead, I believe this post is relevant to permaculture and community (building)—and thus relevant to the general Permaculture Community as a whole.

    I hope some people make use of this “36 Problems…” document as a supplement to their community building work, even if they do not use the Community Visioning Initiative approach.

    Does that work as something of an answer to your question?

    I realize my efforts on some of this subject matter may be overly complex; but I would like chances to re-state something, so as to make it more practical and useful to readers… so I do invite questions, in any such way as people might like to ask them.

    With Kind Regards,

    Stefan
     
  4. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: 36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

    G'day Stefan

    While I agree in principle with most of what you propose in your draft document, particularly with regards to establishing better dialogue between the hundreds (maybe thousands) of dispartate groups that are in operation around the globe, I do have some concerns with the more subtle elements of '36 Problems...', in particular the constant references made to the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba. I am not for one moment suggesting that any of the allegations that have been made against this individual are true, for that is not for me to decide. However I can not help but wonder as to the ethical integrity of an organisation that maintains close ties with a person who claims to be the living incarnate of Jesus Christ, Buddha, indeed '...all the world's' Gods rolled up into one:

    We believe that Sri Sathya Sai Baba is Jesus Christ. Sri Sathya Sai Baba is Buddha. Sri Sathya Sai Baba is the founder of all of the world’s religions. Sri Sathya Sai Baba has always been God.

    Source: Direct quote of Dr Michael Goldstein, International Chairman, Sathya Sai Organisation. Recorded in a transcript of the BBC This World Program, The Secret Swami at 10.3.54, and available at:

    https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/p ... _06_04.txt

    I do try very hard to keep an open mind, and I do believe that in a universe as vast as the one we exist in, that super-natural events hold great potential for occurance. Maybe you can suggest something, anything that might convince me of a chance that I might one day get to say g'day to to a living, breathing, walking, talking God of all Gods?

    Cheerio, Mark.
     
  5. Stefan Pasti

    Stefan Pasti Junior Member

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    Re: 36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

    Thank you, Mark. As with ho hum, I appreciate your taking the time to read enough of the “36 Problems…” document to offer well thought out comments. I especially appreciate that you have respectfully expressed your concerns; and that, with an open mind, you have allowed for the possibility that there may be many new lines of discovery and kinship that we have not yet experienced in this vast universe. In your comments, you have identified some very significant concerns. Though your concerns and questions present some unique challenges, and though some of what follows may be complex, I believe it is right for me to “have a go at it”. In what follows, I have done my best to provide straightforward and sincere responses to your comments.

    Here at the beginning, I will offer two propositions:

    1. I believe that the “36 Problems…” document, the IPCR Initiative from which it comes, and the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba have significant, clear, and practical contributions to make to permaculture and community building.

    2. Those contributions can be brought forward by careful and conscientious Community Visioning Initiative processes, which can be organized and carried out independent of any association with the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba—and independent of any association with the IPCR Initiative.

    That’s where I’m going to go in this response. And I am going to get there by way of responding to the concerns you brought forward.


    The most important influence in my life: “… not as tough a call as it might seem….”

    First, though it presents some unique difficulties in my particular case, I have always highly valued being honest and straightforward. Therefore, while I only quote Sri Sathya Sai Baba four times in the “36 Problems…” document (3 times in #6, and once in #12), I have made mention of the inspiration I have derived from Baba’s teachings in many places in the IPCR website and IPCR documents—and I have made three different compilations of quotations from the series of books “Sathya Sai Speaks” accessible at the IPCR website (counting the one at the end of the document “Peacebuilding in its Most Compassionate Form”). As a summary statement, here is a passage from “Peacebuilding in its Most Compassionate Form” (a statement which is also in an autobiographical sketch at my Facebook page)—

    “This writer hereby attributes the inspiration for the approach and substance of The IPCR Initiative, his personal capacity to see good in the efforts of people from many different faith communities and cultural traditions, and his personal faith in a positive outcome regarding the challenges of our times to close contact, over many years, with the wisdom and compassion in the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba.” (p. 11)

    To this summary statement, I will add that in the above mentioned “Peacebuilding in its Most Compassionate Form” document, and in the “Tone of IPCR Initiative” menu selection on the IPCR homepage (at https://www.ipcri.net ), I also say:

    “In addition—and this is also a most important point—it is not necessary for any readers of this document, or any participants in activities associated with The IPCR Initiative, to know anything about Sri Sathya Sai Baba (the most important influence in this writer’s life), or the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, to contribute to or benefit from the work of The IPCR Initiative.” (p. 11)

    It is also worth noting that “The IPCR Copyright Policy”, which appears in a number of IPCR documents, and in the “About the IPCR Initiative” menu selection (at https://www.ipcri.net ), affirms the following:

    “In light of the urgent need to build bridges and increase collaboration between diverse communities of people, all of the documents, information, resources, etc. created by The IPCR Initiative are viewed as resources which ought to be made as accessible as possible to people who can make good use of them. Therefore, all such documents and information (including this document) may be reproduced without permission….” (i.e. free access to all documents….)

    Setting aside, though, what assurances I may provide about my intentions, I am still very much aware that being straightforward and honest about what is the most important influence in my life may have the following effect: even when there are people who share similar ideas about the need for urgent resolutions to some very significant challenges, and even if those same people understand the need for cultivating spiritual growth in an interfaith and community context—they may steer clear of even exploring what the IPCR Initiative has to offer, because the founder (myself) says that the most important influence in his life is the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba. But while it may seem like I could just leave that part out, it’s really not as tough a call as it might seem. Yes, I myself may not be able to connect a sufficient number of “dots” to demonstrate the potential applications of the wisdom in those teachings, but I may be able to set up enough “dots” so someone else can. I believe some readers will understand what I am saying here by the end of this post.


    Connecting the “Dots”—(There are really many related fields of activity…..)

    One attempt I have made to “connect the dots” is the grouping in Appendix 2 of my current work-in-progress (see draft Table of Contents in the journal entry introducing the “36 Problems…” pdf, at https://www.worldpulse.com/node/13829

    Here is the grouping: (Note: pdfs of the documents below are accessible at my worldpulse.com journal, or at the IPCR website)

    Appendix 2

    A. “Starting Point Links for Learning More About ‘113 Related Fields of Activity’ (113 Fields of Activity Related to Peacebuilding, Community Revitalization, and Ecological Sustainability)”
    B. Appendix 5 from “1000Communities2” document (“Examples of Humanitarian Aid Which Can be Explored Through ‘Sister Community’ Relationships”)
    C. “Divine Intervention: A Collection of Quotations from ‘Sathya Sai Speaks’ Vol. 1-15” (see some excerpts below)

    Here I will offer some thoughts which are similar to the propositions mentioned at the beginning of this post….

    1. I believe that the common threads running through the three pieces mentioned above can be expressed by #8 in the quotes from “Sathya Sai Speaks” (see below).

    2. I also believe these common threads can be experienced without referring to Baba’s teachings—and that careful and conscientious Community Visioning Initiatives processes can increase the likelihood of such experiences.

    (My apologies for the complexity of the above propositions, but there are a lot of threads which could come together in this post, and I’m going to give them a chance to do so).


    “The stakes are high. This is where I take my stand.”

    Having provided the above sampling of my efforts at connecting “dots”, I fully understand—and it is hardly surprising to hear-- your skepticism, about “a person who claims to be the living incarnate of Jesus Christ, Buddha, indeed ...all the world's' Gods rolled up into one”. At this point, there are a number of paths the discussion can take, and most of them look like ways to get bogged down in “unhappy wrangles to which there seems no end....” As I say in another section below, there is the world; and there are many ways we interpret it. There is Sri Sathya Sai Baba; and there are many ways we interpret That. I don’t believe I am in any position now, or that I will ever be in a position, to evaluate “what He is”. But I will include eleven quotes (below) as a way of sharing with readers some of the points by which I arrived at a willingness to affirm that His teachings are the most important influence in my life. I realize that many readers may have already “switched off their hearing aid”, and moved on to something more practical; but there are, I believe, practical reasons enough for me to go forward anyway. I have a cardinal position on my “moral compass” that says “Do not deny the validity of your own experience”. And this is my experience. And I believe it is relevant to realizing the potential of permaculture and community building to contribute to resolving some serious challenges, possibly in a relatively short period of time. The stakes are high. This is where I take my stand.

    You offered one quote from Michael Goldstein. I will offer eleven from my own explorations into the series of books titled “Sathya Sai Speaks”:

    1. “As the clouds form droplets and fall upon the fields which they choose to foster, the Formless Absolute individualizes Itself, assumes Form and comes down among Humanity to save and sustain.” 3.1 p3-4

    2. “’Whenever there is a languishing of Dharma or righteousness and an upheaval of unrighteousness, I create Myself, for it is part of primal resolution or Sankalpa to protect the spiritual structure of the Universe. I lay aside My formless essence and assume a name and a form suited to the purpose for which I come.’” 7.13 p65

    3. “The Lord too has to come in human form and move about among men, so that He could be listened to, contacted, loved, revered and obeyed. He has to speak the language of men and behave like human beings, as a member of the species. Otherwise, He would be either negated and neglected or feared and avoided.” 1.15 p90

    4. “The Lord is Love Itself. He comes in human form so that you can talk to Him, move with Him, serve Him, adore Him, and achieve Him; so that you can recognize your kinship with Him.” 4.45 p262

    5. “... I have no geographical ‘far’ and ‘near’; My ‘far’ and ‘near’ are not calculated in miles or yards. Nearness to Me is not acquired by physical nearness. You may be by My side-- yet, far; you may be far, far away-- yet, very near and dear. However far you are, if you but stick to Sathya, Dharma, Santhi and Prema, you are close to Me and I am close to you.” 7.14 p71-72

    6. “There is nothing that Divine Power cannot accomplish. It can transmute earth into sky and sky into earth. To doubt this is to prove that you are too weak to grasp the grandeur of the Universal.” 4.49 p286

    7. “God has a million names, Sages and Saints have seen Him in a million Forms; they have seen Him with eyes closed and eyes open. They have extolled Him in all the languages and dialects of man; but yet, His glory is not exhausted.” 8.22 p.119

    8. “We too can discover the Lord through His Footprints, which can be discovered everywhere, provided sincere search is made with trained eyes. You can find the footprints wherever there is beauty, virtue, humility, justice, truth, love and peace.” 6.37 p185

    9. “Along the lines already familiar to you, continue the worship of the God of your choice; then you will find, that you are coming nearer and nearer to Me; for, all Names are Mine and all Forms are Mine. There is no need to change, after you have seen Me and heard Me.” 5.22 p122

    10. “Love is My highest Miracle.” 13.21 p116

    11. “Make full use of Me, that is all that I ask of you.” 6.20 p108

    [Note: References are to the “Sathya Sai Speaks” series. These quotes, and others below, are included in the IPCR document “Divine Intervention: A Collection of Quotations from ‘Sathya Sai Speaks’” (accessible from the homepage of the IPCR website). The “Note to Readers” in the beginning of that document has more information about the source of these quotations.]

    [Additional Note: I realize that some readers may feel offended; they may see this as some kind of evangelistic flag waving, and wonder why the moderators can’t weed this kind of stuff out of a Permaculture Forum. But I am not bringing forward these quotes to promote or defend Sri Sathya Sai Baba. This is my best effort to respond to Mark’s concerns and questions, and to attend to the two propositions stated at the beginning of this post (see second paragraph). I ask for patience; I believe some readers will see how this is relevant to realizing the potential of permaculture and community building.]


    On the subject of controversies associated with Sri Sathya Sai Baba

    On the subject of controversies associated with Sri Sathya Sai Baba: I’ve read into many of the claims which make up the controversies. Again (as with defining what Sri Sathya Sai Baba is), this is a difficult subject to comment on, on a good day. For those who are not having a good day, there are many unfortunate possibilities. There is the world; and there are many ways we interpret it. There is Sri Sathya Sai Baba; and there are many ways we interpret That. Most often, our interpretations are projections of who we are onto the vast, ultimately unknowable, canvas of life—and such projections say more about us than the canvas. And then there is the concept of “maya”—anyone like to have a go at explaining that? There are going to be detractors, especially since many people (myself included) believe there have been, and will be, miracles. I have two statements to make on this “controversies” subject: 1) While there is much evidence of the “sayings and doings” of Sri Sathya Sai Baba that seems well documented, I don’t believe there is anyone who can make a definitive evaluation of “what He is”—or the significance of “what He has done” 2) Speaking just for myself, I don’t believe I am in any position now, or that I will ever be in a position, to evaluate “what He is”—or the significance of “what He has done”. I will also add the following five quotes here (from “Sathya Sai Speaks”) (also accessible in the “Divine Intervention…” document, see above Note):

    1. “Nothing can hold Me up or agitate Me or cast a shadow on Me in this Human Form; be certain of that. Not even a hair can be touched by forces of calumny or distrust or ignorance. My sankalpa (resolve) must prevail; My task must be accomplished. My mission will succeed.” 1.16 p93

    2. “The Sai Principle, the Sai Divinity can never be affected by any slander; it can never be shaken by any tactics; its progress can never be halted. Do not pay heed to the barkings you hear.” 12.36 p202

    3. “God incarnates for the revival of Dharma…. I shall fulfil that task, whatever the comments that others may make. Comment is a natural corollary. I do not pay any attention to it; nor should you.” 8.8 p35

    4. “People do not understand the ways of God. How can they know why a particular event takes place at a particular time in a particular manner? He alone can know.” 7.7 p43

    5. “In truth, you cannot understand the nature of My Reality either today, or even after a thousand years of steady austerity or ardent inquiry even if all mankind joins in that effort.” 8.19 p99


    Going forward from where we are....

    To continue: Does accepting an interpretation of Sri Sathya Sai Baba that includes “all of the above” mean that I believe the Sai Organization, or the IPCR Initiative, are infallible because of association to such a Personage? I hope readers do not underestimate this question. There is always good reason to carefully sift through why people are suggesting they have something to offer. Is it because they have made significant progress on some worthy goal as a result of their efforts? Due to my lack of first hand experience, I can in no way speak for the Sai Organization; but as a general observation, there are shortcomings in every organization with human beings in it—and many very real challenges ahead. Are these realities recognized? And for myself, I do not hesitate in affirming that I still have a long ways to go to come near putting into practice the spiritual wisdom represented by the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Even so, that doesn’t mean that I must therefore fail to recognize the relevance of these teachings to resolving some of the challenges of our times. Or wait until I have fully mastered the wisdom in Baba’s teachings before I try to apply any of them to community building. (We have to go forward from where we are….) And so I have tried to explore how they can be applied…. In my particular case—being someone with a personal interest in peacebuilding and community building—the result of my explorations so far is The IPCR Initiative (at https://www.ipcri.net ).

    Although I did not think it was going to be so when I first began building The IPCR Initiative, my explorations appear to have taken me in directions which diverge from the official approach associated with establishing Sai Centers—and with the administration of Sai Centers. Consequently, I am not formally affiliated with—or officially sanctioned by—the International Sai Organization. However, I do (nevertheless) feel very strongly that The IPCR Initiative represents one possible approach to “making full use” of the wisdom that can be derived from those teachings. The key concept, which connects all this with permaculture and community building, is Community Visioning Initiatives.


    Community Visioning Initiatives: Increasing the Likelihood of Kinship Experiences

    Community Visioning Initiatives, as I am representing them, are a means of bringing forward the best resources a group of geographically associated residents can identify—for the purpose of resolving the challenges such residents identify as most urgently needing their attention. Example: While I may believe that the “36 Problems…” document touches on many significant challenges, and the Eight IPCR Concepts (see “Brief Descriptions of The Eight IPCR Concepts”) represent valuable resources, my assessment is only one opinion. And if I was involved in a Community Visioning Initiative, I may mention that document, and those resources (the idea would not be to go through the elaborate efforts necessary to organize and carry out a Community Visioning Initiative so people can withhold what they believe is valuable….) But my “votes” may not be very influential, and other assessments and resources may prevail. However, I trust, and wholeheartedly believe, that using a system as comprehensive as the Community Visioning process I have outlined (see the “1000Communities2” proposal, at https://ipcri.net/images/1000Communities2.pdf ) to identify challenges, resources, solutions, and action plans will eventually, over the years, result in people approximating “a highest synthesis of truth and community”, from their point of view. I also believe that, because the stakes are high—and because for those communities of people who are sincere enough to carry out Community Visioning Initiatives as comprehensive as I have outlined credibility will gravitate towards efforts which are honest, responsible, compassionate, and service-oriented—what they will discover as a highest synthesis will be of such a similar spiritual essence to other communities (which have carried out Community Visioning Initiatives of a similar nature) as to significantly increase the likelihood of kinship experiences between many diverse communities of people.

    Thus, I believe that applying spiritual wisdom, in circumstances such as we now have, to the development of community building processes, for the purpose of overcoming a multitude of profound challenges, is a good idea. Since my beliefs include the common threads running through the groupings in Appendix 2 (above), I further believe that the potential “introduced” by the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, has been touched on in many ways in the past, and can be just as fully explored in the future, even after “Sri Sathya Sai Baba” in the specific sense is no longer in “human form”.


    Concluding Comments

    Do the following two passages seem to have a common thread running through them now?

    1. The challenges of our times are such that it is now critical for us to access the storehouses of wisdom which have accumulated over the many centuries of human experience, and which have been confirmed again and again as essential to individual well-being and social harmony by the saints, sages, spiritual leaders, and sincere practitioners of all religious, spiritual, and moral “world views”.

    2. “The transition from an unsustainable fossil fuel-based economy back to a solar-based (agriculture and forestry) economy will involve the application of the embodied energy that we inherit from industrial culture. This embodied energy is contained within a vast array of things, infrastructure, cultural processes and ideas, mostly inappropriately configured for the “solar” economy. It is the task of our age to take this great wealth, reconfigure it, and apply it to the development of sustainable systems.” [David Holmgren, from “Energy and Permaculture” article (at https://permacultureactivist.net/Holmgren/holmgren.htm )]

    Is it possible for individuals to cultivate highly advanced forms of compassion? (If you have been in the presence of persons who have cultivated a highly advanced form of compassion within themselves, you know it is possible. I have been in the presence of such people. I know it is possible.) Is it possible for people to learn how to cultivate elements of kinship between many diverse communities of people? I believe it is. How important is service work [giving without requiring compensation either because help is urgently needed, or because one understands the truth represented by “dharma guards its guardians” (“virtue is its own reward”)] to realizing the potential of any field of activity? Are Communities Visioning Initiatives relevant to permaculture and community building? Are minimizing the “36 Problems That May Arise…” relevant to successful Community Visioning Initiatives? Is wisdom (find it where ye may) relevant to minimizing the “36 Problems….”?

    We live in a very complex world. There are very difficult challenges ahead.

    Sometimes intuition must suggest conclusions which cannot be proved by rational intellectual analysis.

    I believe if we are to overcome the challenges of our times we will need not only the resources which innovators can prove the existence of by scientific method; we will also need the resources which people of faith believe exist as a result of inner experience.

    I’m going forward recognizing that the beliefs and propositions I’ve brought forward in this post are part of what I consider “resources”. Another cardinal point on my “moral compass” formed as I began to fully realize the potential of Community Visioning Initiatives. I personally cannot know in my heart that such resources exist (consider again the groupings in Appendix 2 above), and such kinship is possible (through careful and conscientious Community Visioning Initiatives processes), and then turn away from trying to do my part to realize its potential.


    With Kind Regards,

    Stefan
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: 36 Problems That May Arise (in preparing for CVIs)

    G'day Stefan

    Thank you for a lengthy and comprehensive response to what I imagine (rather I know, considering I posed it) was a 'challenging' question.

    I have carefully read your entire response (as I did the entire '36 problems...' - the act of which prompted my initial comment/question), and as such I offer the following as a counter comment/question:

    Thank you for very early in your response wrapping up and spelling out exactly what it is you believe, and where you think it can be applied. Firstly, allow me to offer you the same courtesy. I believe you will struggle to convince some adherents to the permaculture movement as to the 'significant, clear and practical contributions' that the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba can offer. I say this knowing full well that mysticism, spiritualism, (Mollison calls it, 'Woo Woo'-ism), or any other form of super-natural practice or being does not factor at all in the original, and some would say, fundamental text of the movement, Permaculture One (Mollison and Holmgren, 1978).

    Secondly, and concerning the 'significant, clear and practical contributions' that the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba purports to offer 'community building' in general, and 'community visioning' in particular: I remain concerned that the teachings of a being, any being, who claims sole possession of the ultimate, and unquestionable 'understanding', or 'truth'...

    ...should form the basis for which you have sourced your own teaching material, the very '36 Problems...' that you offer. I am of the belief that community visioning is a practical model of community building, indeed it remains a very practical model of assisting communities to transform, but I am also of the belief that the model itself should be presented as secular and free from all bias, be that spiritual, political, or otherwise. This is not to say that I do not believe, and unlike Mollison (perhaps?), that there is no place for mysticism in permaculture. For I am of the firm belief that 'spiritual wellbeing' (Holmgren, Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, 2004, p. xx) deserves equal, but no greater acknowledgment alongside of the other six 'petals' that form Holmgren's 'Permaculture Flower' (ibid).

    What I am suggesting is that 'people' (generally those that form a group in the early stages of a community visioning exercise) should be free to bring to the process their own brand of dogma, and not have your particular brand presented to them as gospel, or the unquestionable 'truth'. Yes, I know that Sri Sathya Sai Baba warns...

    ...however, my 'barkings' are based on the defence of pluralism. I 'bark' in order to remind those who believe only in the possibility of the supreme godhead, or divine creation, that there are many others out there, humanists for example, that could be turned away from encountering anything of value in the '36 Problems...' by the dogma, as it is presented.

    Maybe I am splitting hairs here (a favourite pastime of mine), and if I am I trust that either yourself or one of the other erudite beings who regularly post here will point this out to me, however I can not help but feel that your general disclaimer...

    ...as noble and utopian (for which I am personally happy to subscribe to) as it may be, is just not going to wash with the majority of people who adhere to the 'western' capitalist mass producer/mass consumer paradigm that is so dominant in today's so called 'developed' cultures, and I therefore believe that you, and the permaculture movement in general (although by no means do I propose to be its spokeperson), risk losing more (disciples?) than you (or the PC movement) will gain by your endeavours.

    Once again, I do believe that there is ample space for all faiths/religions/belief structures/'world views' in society, and therefore permaculture, but one should not come at the expense of another.

    Finaly, may I ask what your personal position is with regards to people like the 'humanists' I mentioned earlier. Or for that matter, any individual or group that dares to go against the teachings of Sri Sathya Sai Baba? Are they too destined to be labled as 'barkers', and therefore should anything of worth that they may bring to your brand of a community visioning process be discarded into the flames of sanctimonious oblivion?

    Preaching is not teaching. A belief structure subscribed to by any individual/group that does not acknowledge the inherent freedom of another individual/group to believe - or not believe, if that should be the case - in whatever they choose, in my opinion, does not 'have significant, clear, and practical contributions to make to permaculture and community building'.

    Cheerio, Mark.
     

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