mandala marked out - what's the next step?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Bandicoot Valley, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Bandicoot Valley

    Bandicoot Valley Junior Member

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    We have finally begun our permaculture project. We're doing it in the Linda Woodrow style of a mandala incorporating 6 chook dome stations & a pond in the middle. So far I've marked out the pattern, laid heaps of newspaper on the pathways & loaded that up with eucalyptus mulch. We've put it in the sheep paddock & will re-fence in the next week or so to keep the sheep off it. The planting sections are full of paddock weeds.

    What's the best way forward from here?
     
  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Hello to Bandicoot Valley. Where are you exactly? I'm 6 months into my Linda Woodrow style garden, so I'm no expert, but I'm 6 month ahead of you!

    Hint #1 It takes much longer to grow seedlings than you expect - at least it did for me. I thought 2 weeks tops and they'll be ready to go in the ground. Which meant that the chooks had LONG moved on from the bed before I was ready to plant it. And then the weeds get the jump on you. So pull out your book and some sheets of paper and plan which guild you are going to plant in which bed and when. Set up a seed raising area (you'll need more space than you think). Source your seeds, and collect the other bits you'll need - trays, seed raising mix, plant labels (trust me you'll forget what you put where) and things to use as bottomless pots - milk cartons, yoghurt tubs etc. You need a lot. Then start getting seeds germinating before you start moving your chooks onto place.

    I've started seeds this week for when the chooks return to the first circle in 8 weeks time - I'll be doing her Guild 1 with a few modifications.

    I cheated with the pond and had a landscaper set a bathtub pond up for me. You'll need to work out how you are making yours and out of what and start getting that organized too.

    Hint #2 I wouldn't bother doing any preparation of the spots the chooks are going on to. 2 weeks and you'll have bare earth regardless of how much back breaking labour you put in first once the chooks go to town.

    Hint # 3 If planting a new garden every 2 weeks gets a bit much - whack in a green manure crop instead. Just toss the seeds on a few days after the chooks have left and water in. The chooks will have raptures when they get back on to it and you have improved your soil in the meantime and kept the weeds away.

    I decided not to make the compost beds the first time around. I had enough to concentrate on just getting enough things germinated as it was! I'll do this with the second lap around the garden. I do have a fruit tree at each spot, but I didn't get fussed trying to work out when each sets fruit to get the chooks there at the right time. I just seemed too hard! It'll be 2 years before I get fruit from most of them any way and I may have changed garden styles by then.

    Hint # 4 Think about what you want to be doing in what season. I was so mad keen to get the garden started that I've ended up trying to get things to germinate and grow in late Autumn / early winter. And quickly learned that they don't grow very fast, and it is really frustrating. But it is a good time to make compost and do other physically demanding jobs that you don't want to do in summer. Plan to plant in spring and autumn and rest in summer and winter.

    Have you thought about what you'll do with the chooks in the 3 months off the garden? And will you let them free range or will they stay in the dome? I've been feeling guilty that mine stay in the dome and let them out a few times recently. They have mauled my corn to within an inch of its life. I'm thinking that I'll put a circle of bales around each garden and cover it somehow with chicken wire when they are first planted, so I can let the chooks into the more established beds, but save the new seedlings.

    Hint #5 Several permies have told me that the Woodrow system isn't a good long term option. I can't tell you whether that is true from 6 months of experience. It has been a good place to start for me as it seemed easy to follow someone else's recipe, rather than have to create my own. I'm planning on using it while it works and learning what I can from the experience so that I can do my own thing further down the track.

    I'm happy to share my mistakes / successes with you so feel free to ask anything you want! And let me know how your garden unfolds as I might learn useful stuff in return.
     
  3. mintcake

    mintcake Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Did they give you any reasons why they held this view? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work long term.
     
  4. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    One (who is also a landscaper) said that it overworks the soil and the soil quality drops off with time. I think he was worried that the chooks would stay on the one spot for an extended period though.
    Others have had concerns with housing the chooks in the dome - it's not a permanent weather proof wooden house after all. I've been told that the flapping tarp will put the chooks off laying - but mine seem to lay regardless.
    It does take a bit of thought to plan out the rotations and get plants in the ground at the right time to keep the soil covered, and reach harvest before the chooks return. It might be easier to plant what you want, when you want, where you want.
    I like it so far because I'm a bit obsessive compulsive at the best of times and I like planning everything to the n-th degree! And being new to permaculture it seemed easier for me to follow a set recipe for success rather than having a huge blank canvas and not knowing where to begin.

    If there is anyone out there who has used the system in the longer term - or abandoned it after a time who wants to weigh into the discussion?
     
  5. mintcake

    mintcake Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    My chooks have just been through the Melbourne winter in their dome and don't seem to have had any problems.

    I occasionally stick them all in the barn overnight if I know the weather is going to be really bad (the rooster goes in there every night anyway - got to keep the neighbours happy). I also make sure they can snuggle into plenty of hay. Mine have never taken to perching - wonder if that's a breed specific thing, they are faverolles (which I chose specifically because they were said to be more hardy than most).

    I found the trick for fixing a flapping tarp was to get the super-duper guy ropes with integrated springs (we got ours from a Mitre10 superstore) this seems to put enough tension on the tarp to stop the flapping but allows enough movement that the ropes don't snap (which happened when I had a basic setup).

    Managed properly I wouldn't think this would happen and you could always plan a green manure spell into the rotation if you think it might.

    I must admit my planting is still pretty haphazard at this stage - partly because I'm intending to redesign the whole area with raised beds with fox proof edges so I don't have to worry about having skirts on the dome which makes moving it a PITA. I have plenty of space so I can always move the dome to a paddock if an area isn't quite ready due to imperfect planning. :)
     
  6. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    So Mintcake how long have you had your system in action?

    I've put a circle of hay bales around my dome. I'm not sure if I'm kidding myself about it being predator proof (I think I am....) but I haven't had anything annoying the chooks yet.

    Have you got any other tips about using the system from her book?
     
  7. mintcake

    mintcake Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Hay bales will probably be good enough - foxes tend to dig in a trench-like fashion rather than an actual tunnel - but it still makes moving the dome more time consuming which means you sometimes end up putting off a move longer than you should.

    I've had my chooks for about 7 months but I still don't really have a bedded-down design or planned planting yet - I'm working on a bit of a plan for Spring and I'm hoping to at least get the area mapped out properly in preparation for building the raised beds before the Spring growing season is under way.

    Up til now I have simply planted stuff wherever there is a spare patch which means I haven't got it going as efficiently as I could (I still feed the chooks a fair amount of bought-in feed and sometimes they need to move to a paddock while I wait to harvest the next spot). But I decided that doing something was better than worrying about doing it perfectly and it will get better as I get to know the various timings.
     
  8. Bandicoot Valley

    Bandicoot Valley Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Thank you for your replies. I have got a long way to go! Did you set up all beds at the same time as no-dig? I discovered, much to my horror, that we would need 43 tonnes of compost to cover the beds 10cm thick. Yikes! Or did you just to one dome at a time & let the chooks do all the work. I think I'm being impatient and want to get the first bed ready to plant out asap. I thought I'd plant green manure (adzuki beans in our case - please let me know if this is a good idea or not) in the other 5 sections & have the dome on one. But then I wondered if I should plant straight into the weedy ground as it is, or lay newspapers on it first. Argh, sorry, my mind is all over the place! Any & all advice very welcome.

    Half of the dome I've now covered with a thick layer of peastraw, straight onto the ground. Hmmm, did I get that right?

    Eco, we're in the Adelaide Hills. We have reclaimed a fair chunk of our sheep paddock to get started on our dream to become self sufficient. The paddocks are very bare & we're on a north facing slope but we get howling winds from the west as there is no windbreak as yet, so I'm also trying to work on that. Again suggestions for multi-purpose trees very welcome.

    ETA I think I want to be uber organised but the reality is that I think I'll be more like Mintcake & plant whatever wherever...

    On the fox front, I was considering cutting into the ground around each chook dome station & burying 1ft wide chook wire. My husband wants to have a skirt around the dome instead. What do you think?
     
  9. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    I wouldn't bother prepping the ground. When I made my dome I bought some extra pipe and made a circle the same diam as the bottom of the dome which I use to figure out where to put them next. I don't have enough flat land to set out the mandala like in the book. You'll have plenty to do once the chooks move off - don't waste time doing stuff to the ground first!

    Do try to toss into the dome as many compost ingredients as you can lay your hands on because that will become your garden bed. I jump the fence each time the neighbours mow and take grass clippings, toss in spent mushroom compost that I can get locally and cheaply, manures - espescially the local stable manure which is full of maggots and worms (the chooks love it), shredded paper, coffee grounds that I can get fairly large amounts of, whatever I can lay my hands on. If you toss in enough stuff (particularly free or cheap stuff) you'll quickly get the chooks to make you 10 cm of lovely compost. There's no such thing as too much, as you can shovel off some of the extra and use it elsewhere in the garden. The pea straw is a great start, but I'd try to find a mix of stuff - just like you wouldn't make a whole compost heap with only pea straw. You'll find that time spent stockpiling stuff to go in the dome is a better use of your time than prepping the beds before the chooks go on.

    I would guess that planting adzuki into the grass probably isn't going to work. Put it in one of the dome beds after the chooks have left and rotate a green manure bed around through them gradually with each season. I used barley and lucerne over winter for my green manure. Green Harvest (seed suppliers) say that a grass combined with a low growing legume is a good combo as each uses the space the other doesn't. I don't know anything about adzuki so I can't say whether you are on a good thing or not, but if it grows in your area well, any legume is better than none.

    I'm completely limited when it comes to building skills. So just building the dome (with help from the kids and the brother in law) was a huge challenge for me and the thought of adding a skirt was too much! As mintcake alluded to - with a move every 2 weeks you want a process that takes 15 mins tops, not 2 hours each time. And I'm single so I have to be able to do it single handedly. Which is why I went for bales. I can carry each one on my own and it doesn't take very long. And it gives you a comfy spot to sit when you are talking to the chooks, and a step up into the dome. I made a 3m diameter dome and it takes 11 bales to encircle the base. Burying wire if you are going to move it each time is going to be a bugger....

    I've also made my life a bit easier by rigging up a watering system. 19 mm poly pipe runs across the beds, and is attached to the tap with an automatic timer. I then popped a riser into the pipe just inside the dome on each side. I recycled 2 x 2 litre milk cartons by cutting a diamond shape into the front opposite the handle so the chooks can get their heads in to drink, and hung them onto the bottom rung with a loop of tie wire. The riser goes in through the opening, up through the handle and back down into the body of the bottle, with a dripper on the end. This slows down the rate and makes it impossible for the riser to get pulled out by a chook. 3 mins twice a day on the timer ensures fresh water. When the chooks move I pull these out and put a half circle sprinkler in the hole instead and the beds get watered.

    I struggled to sort out a "proper" roost at first. This is my first time with chooks and I was completely clueless as to what a chook would like to sleep on. My landscaper rolled around laughing when he saw the cute little thing I put together out of bamboo garden stakes. The chooks laughed too and refused to use it. The next try was a ladder made out of bits of fallen wood held together with cable ties (I did say I was useless at this sort of thing - bear that in mind!) that I propped up against the side of the dome. The 3 biggest chooks tried to all get on the top rung at the same time! It also had the landscaper friend laughing as he reckoned that having to grip the round branch all night long would be uncomfortable. (Heck they sleep in trees I thought - what do you need - something from Ikea?!) The ladder is still in there as they now use it for help to get up onto the final - and so simple I wonder why I didn't think of it first - solution. Which is a plank of wood about 10 cm wide, 2 cm thick and long enough to simply go from one side of the dome to the other resting on the top rail. It sorta locks in against the chook wire and is quiet stable. No one laughs any more and the 5 biggest chooks use it, with the other 3 prefering to sit on the laying box (a plastic milk carton on its side).

    Gee - here was I thinking I was still a beginner at this and now I look and see how much stuff I know. Mighty impressed with myself!

    Have fun with it. :D
     
  10. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Hello bandicoot valley - good luck in establishing your garden. At Purple Pear we started or mandala market garden three years ago and have found it to be remarkably productive.

    We started by marking out the beds and raising them as we have them on very marginal ground with acid clay. the paths were dug out to allow for the beds to be raised and the paths filled with sawdust from a local mill. We embedded wire into the ground for fox protection and to retain the mulch.

    I'm not so sure that any of that is necessary, especially in a home garden situation. We conduct tours of our farm and needed to have fairly precise layout and a bit "sexy" in presentation. We also made a bottom circle to mark out the beds and used this to insure that the embedded wire was the right size and shape for the domes. If you just plonk the dome on a spot and feed mulch into the chickens then the bed will be marked and the area will be raised over time by the chooks. Digging out the paths was a lot of work and only necessary because of the swamp like situation we chose to build the beds on.

    Embedding the wire has led to the decay of some of the wire after three years use and I am finding it necessary to replace some now. I have started to try with recycled plastic but this can not support the tarp as the wire did and ground anchors now tie the tarps down - a bit expensive!

    The fertility of the soil is building and toxicity should not build as there is six months till the chooks are back on the site.

    We currently supply twenty boxes of food in a CSA from the garden and hope to build this to atleast fifty when all the beds are fully productive and the fruit trees are mature

    Be sure that it is a worthwhile project and adapt as you need to - it's fun and a great way to garden.

    You can see some of what we have been doing at www.purplepear.net.au
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Hey - small world! Purplepear I had looked at your website ages ago when I first started my garden and here we are chatting!

    Congrats on the appearance on the telly BTW - I had wondered whether is was to be a "Better Homes and Gardens" type show (buy potting mix and spray with round up before use...) or something more appropriate. If you are on it it must be going to be great.
     
  12. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    I'm a PDC grad and all that, but I never 'get' the mandela garden thing... I get that you can stand in the middle of the bed to work, but other than that, the shape makes everything awkward - irrigation tubing, chook domes, paths, cloches... what am I missing?!
     
  13. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    You gotta learn to think outside of the square! (that was a pun.... )

    There's more edge. You plant your single harvest plants (caulis, cabbages) in the centre and the ones that you harvest daily (herbs, peas, beans, silver beet etc) around the outside, with taller pick a few times crops like tomato and eggplant in between these.
    The dome is a circle too so it fits perfectly. Being completely challenged as a builder I found the chook dome very easy to make. Making a rectangular box though would have me needing therapy!
    The distance from bed to bed when you move the dome is minimal.
    Irrigation tubing doesn't have to be straight. I use 19 mm pipe from the tap through the centre of each bed, then in the middle of the bed cut it and add a T that reduces down to a 13 mm dripper pipe which I run in a spiral through the bed.
    Curves are sexy. And appear more often in nature than straight lines, which fits with the whole copying from nature aspect of permaculture.

    To be honest though, mine doesn't look like Purple Pears place (which is seriously sexy!) as I don't have the flat space, so my circular beds are actually laid out in a straight line, on 3 different levels, not in a mandala at all. I wish it was though as doing the daily walk around would be easier, for the quick check of what is ready to harvest, what is struggling, and for pest and weed observation. You could almost stand in the middle and turn around.
     
  14. Bandicoot Valley

    Bandicoot Valley Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Day 2 of the chooks in the dome we've had very strong winds & my dome collapsed! I've propped it up with a centre post, but I can't leave the tarp on it in this stormy weather as it's caving in the sides. The chooks are back in their yard. Not happy! I seriously need to get a good windbreak planted asap. Any advice or suggestions on edible produce trees that can double as windbreaks most welcome!
     
  15. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Old Hamii clumping bamboo (bambusa oldhamii or "Giant Timber" bamboo) makes a good windbreak and critter habitat, grows fast, and produces edible shoots. Google it :)
     
  16. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    I went missing for a bit - now I'm back. Domes collapsing in the wind was a problem for us at first as we get fierce westerlies coming down the Hunter Valley. Our windbreaks are not yet mature enough to be super effective.In the frist instance I have made substantial perches and prop under these perches in a couple of places. It is amazing how stable this makes the dome in a wind. It adds nothing to the weight as you remove them before moving the dome on. On some of the domes I have used the props as carrying devices. You can see the top of the prop in my photo gallery on the website. The bottom has a tee piece to stop the prop sinking into the soil.
    Bana grass is a fast growing "grass" which is also a passable stock food for the dairy cows. It propagates easily by laying stalks of the grass in shallow trenches where you want the wind break. The grass shoots from the nodes and soon you will have a wind break. I have done this with sugar cane as well but it don't want to grow well in the temperate region. This can be supplemented with lemon grass which also propagates well this time of year. Windbreaks need to be made from species that grow well in your area. The pioneer acacias were grown here and inter planted with Casurina and Silky oak with a layer of melalukas calistamins and grevilleas and inter planted with matrush and poa as well as other grasses.
    We have heavy clay soils and these may not suit all regions. We used shade cloth on fences for a while in the real trouble spots. The compost sites in the garden also work well as windbreaks shelters and microclimates within the garden.
     
  17. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Gbell it is the interconnectedness of the elements in the mandala that work for me. It is like a giant "guild" with countless little "guilds" inside it all working together to the benefit of each. The fruit trees offer important shade in the summer and the north ones are bare in winter when we need the sun, the under story and the central ponds harbor pest predators and control the balance the chooks clean up old weeds and pests prior to the beds getting seedlings Perhaps I am over simplifying (or raving) but the idea is that the mandala "sings" a beautiful melody. The stuff Eco said about edge is very important and well said too.
     
  18. Grahame

    Grahame Senior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Purplepear,

    I've been admiring your mandala garden, and I have to say it has sung it's song to me. I've built my first chook dome and am looking forward to getting a few of my beds up and running.

    I haven't read much about the mandala gardens or seen Ms. Woodrow's book or plans so I was particularly interested in what your 'Cow pat pit' is and what it is for? Is it unique to your garden or is it a standard edition? I am also interested in how you have lined each of your individual mandala ponds.

    Cheers
    Grahame
     
  19. purplepear

    purplepear Junior Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    Thanks for your complements Grahame. as a teacher, I love to inspire. I must say that it's easy when you have an inspiring subject like permaculture.

    However the cow pat pit is for making a biodynamic preparation which is sometimes called Maria Thuns barrel compost and is basically a homeopathic compost we use extensively on garden and pasture. It is situated at the very centre of the system and its goodness is spread throughout the garden without the need for application (but we still do use it on new beds and at the start of each season) If you go to the web site https://www.purplepear.net.au and hit biodynamics you will get a better explanation.

    The ponds were to be ones I made on a pile of sand (upside down) but when made were too heavy. They are plastic liners (the hard plastic type) as we needed to bring the irrigation up through the centre of the ponds.

    It is important to note that Linda's' concept is offered as just that (a concept) and individual adaptations are encouraged.
    Hope i've been of some help.
    Regards
    intent-observation-intuition
     
  20. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Re: mandala marked out - what's the next step?

    I spotted a copy of her book on the table during Costa's Garden Odyssey last week - when the VEG boys were planning their permablitz. Clever to get that bit of marketing past the SBS!
     

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